China - Taiwan Developments

Paulsie said:
Scary thing is that all those universities use this page as reference and fact checker. Instead of the other way round.
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You responded to my post twice, sad to say your second post wasn't any more coherent. :X3:
 
Cray said:
You responded to my post twice, sad to say your second post wasn't any more coherent. :X3:
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Sorry, my previous comment got tangled up with another post.

It's like - imagine there's conflict with Taiwan. The question would be, what did the US do to cause that?

The answer would be Nancy.
 
Kieppie said:
I don't live there so I can't comment. Closest was in Taiwan, but besides some cultural differences one 1st world city is pretty much like the next..

We've been expecting them to break their shackles and rise up for decades. We debated at university that as their standard of living increases they will be less willing to work for, what we consider to be, slave wages which would essentially cripple their competitiveness with the rest of the world resulting in forced changes in their government. This hasn't happened. Sure there are some detractors and people that flee their country, but how significant is this to their overall population?
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So because the overall population has a better life that excuses the human rights violations visited against individuals?


Kieppie said:
As to whether the system is better I suppose you could look at the influence exerted on the globe. Theirs have been rising consistently over the years, while western nations have started to wane. As westerners we view this as problematic, but for the average Chinese?
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So it's not about morality, it's just about winning? No wonder you lot bend over backwards for the likes of Trump.
 
Paulsie said:
Sorry, my previous comment got tangled up with another post.

It's like - imagine there's conflict with Taiwan. The question would be, what did the US do to cause that?

The answer would be Nancy.
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You lost me there...
 
Cray said:
Now tell me why you think that the Chinese system is better?
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I wouldn't say either is better than the other. They're different. Many democracies are struggling too, many democracies have questionable human rights records.
China has maintained a high growth rate for more than 30 years since the beginning of economic reform in 1978, this sustained growth has generated a huge increase in average living standards. 25 years ago, China had many characteristics in common with the rest of developing Asia: large population, low per capita income, and resource scarcity on a per capita basis. But in the 15 years from 1990 to 2005, China averaged per capita growth of 8.7%
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China's sustained growth fueled historically unprecedented poverty reduction. Based on household surveys, the poverty rate in China in 1981 was 63% of the population. This rate declined to 10% in 2004, indicating that about 500 million people have climbed out of poverty during this period.
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China has contributed close to three-quarters of the global reduction in the number of people living in poverty.
The introduction of universal health care and almost universal unemployment insurance scheme go a long way in ensuring protection of the right to health and broader social and economic rights
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en.m.wikipedia.org

Poverty in China - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
Cray said:
You lost me there...
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They were pushing for Nato expansion where it was very uncomfortable for putin. He's been raising concerns for years.

Now same with Taiwan.
 
asia.nikkei.com

Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

Stepped up scrutiny of import documents raises disruption fears for iPhone maker
asia.nikkei.com asia.nikkei.com
Apple has asked suppliers to ensure that shipments from Taiwan to China strictly comply with Chinese customs regulations after a recent visit by senior U.S. lawmaker Nancy Pelosi to Taipei stoked fears of rising trade barriers.

Apple told suppliers on Friday that China has started strictly enforcing a long-standing rule that Taiwanese-made parts and components must be labeled as being made either in "Taiwan, China" or "Chinese Taipei," sources familiar with the matter told Nikkei Asia, language that indicates the island is part of China.
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C4Cat said:
I wouldn't say either is better than the other. They're different. Many democracies are struggling too, many democracies have questionable human rights records.
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Fair point

C4Cat said:
China has contributed close to three-quarters of the global reduction in the number of people living in poverty.
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Would you prefer to live in China versus a Western democratic country?

Not suggesting China is the devil and they are certainly better than Russia but how many freedoms are you willing to trade?
 
Cray said:
So because the overall population has a better life that excuses the human rights violations visited against individuals?
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Where did I say that? Although human rights does not have an absolute global standard, even despite institutions like the UN, so different cultures view things differently

Cray said:
So it's not about morality, it's just about winning? No wonder you lot bend over backwards for the likes of Trump.
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Now you're twisting what I said. Thanks for the unnecessary "you lot" by the way.. Should I retort with TDS now? :cautious:
I'm equating global influence with acceptance of their viewpoints by the other nations. To a certain extent this is largely due to money and corrupt politicians, but still.
Also I'm asking you to put yourself in the shoes of an average Chinese citizen looking out. The perspective will seem different. This just ties back to how we consider Democracy in it's various forms morally superior.
 
Kieppie said:
Now you're twisting what I said. Thanks for the unnecessary "you lot" by the way.. Should I retort with TDS now? :cautious:
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Fair enough, it was a cheap shot, my apologies :X3:
Kieppie said:
I'm equating global influence with acceptance of their viewpoints by the other nations. To a certain extent this is largely due to money and corrupt politicians, but still.
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I will conceed, the cultural influence of China, not just now but historically has been immense... I just find it intolerable in its current form.

Kieppie said:
Also I'm asking you to put yourself in the shoes of an average Chinese citizen looking out. The perspective will seem different. This just ties back to how we consider Democracy in it's various forms morally superior.
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Democracy has its flaws by all means, but one of it's hallmarks is the freedom to speak out and criticize, something that is not available to the average Chinese citizen.

Knowledge of what goes on in other parts of the world is not a bad thing, the fact that the CCP tries to restrict that knowledge says a lot about them..

The great firewall of China should not exist, but if you want to defend its existence, have at it.
 
Cray said:
Would you prefer to live in China versus a Western democratic country
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I've never lived in China so its not a choice I can make. If I was poor, I'm guessing I might have an easier time in China. There are also plenty of Westerners moving to China and loving it there. Some I know and many others write about it online. I don't know if you've been to China or not, or ever lived there but if not then is it possible you have some incorrect preconceived ideas of what living in China is like?
 
C4Cat said:
I've never lived in China so its not a choice I can make. If I was poor, I'm guessing I might have an easier time in China. There are also plenty of Westerners moving to China and loving it there. Some I know and many others write about it online. I don't know if you've been to China or not, or ever lived there but if not then is it possible you have some incorrect preconceived ideas of what living in China is like?
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When was the last time China changed governments? Is democracy that valueless for you? Sure, a poor family could be bribed with food to live under an authoritarian regime but would you consider that to be an ideal society ?

Google "the great firewall of China" and get back to me, if you want to trade freedom of information and communicaton for that food stipend every week..

Edit: Lots of Westerners live in all sorts of sh*tty countries for good salaries, all that says is that some people value money over morality.
 
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Kieppie said:
Just to throw a spanner in the works.
You can't technically say democracy is morally superior. It's just the system we are used to.
For those that did not take a course or two in political science at varsity this is a short article, but not very in-depth, that may be interesting. ( I could find better sources, but this isn't the place for an in-depth discussing so it should be sufficient to make the point)

www.politicalscienceview.com

Forms of Government: Monarchy, Democracy & More

Explore the types, strengths, and weaknesses of governments and states for political insight and civic understanding.
www.politicalscienceview.com www.politicalscienceview.com

Democracy itself has a few variation as well as certain problems. But basically it's a "the best we have at the moment" kinda thing. Much like how capitalism has for decades been considered as such, yet these days some people prefer social democracy (not to be confused with socialism). Who knows what will be considered the "morally superior" version in the next century
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Theory vs Reality

In theory, no system is "morally" superior

In reality, democracy (whichever flavour) is "morally" superior.

The Encyclopedia Britannica (https://www.britannica.com/topic/democracy/International-systems) puts it so much better than I could:

(1) democracy helps to prevent rule by cruel and vicious autocrats;
(2) modern representative democracies do not fight wars with one another;
(3) countries with democratic governments tend to be more prosperous than countries with nondemocratic governments; and
(4) democracy tends to foster human development—as measured by health, education, personal income, and other indicators—more fully than other forms of government do.

Other features of democracy also would be considered desirable by most people, though some would regard them as less important than features 1 through 4 above:
(5) democracy helps people to protect their fundamental interests;
(6) democracy guarantees its citizens fundamental rights that nondemocratic systems do not, and cannot, grant; and
(7) democracy ensures its citizens a broader range of personal freedoms than other forms of government do. Finally, there are some features of democracy that some people—the critics of democracy—would not consider desirable at all, though most people, upon reflection, would regard them as at least worthwhile:
(8) only democracy provides people with a maximum opportunity to live under laws of their own choosing;
(9) only democracy provides people with a maximum opportunity to take moral responsibility for their choices and decisions about government policies; and
(10) only in a democracy can there be a relatively high level of political equality.
 
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