Crystal Web (NEW ISP) ADSL Feedback

[Crystal Web]

OK so I've taken your suggestions on board, and we've discussed a product that may in fact be suitable at the same or similar price points that will block peer to peer during peak, allows better support for VPN connections, and will simply shape http downloads during peak as well.

Would this be a suitable bridge to fill the needs for those of you with VPN and concerns about shaping peer to peer?

Essentially this account would block peer to peer and shape http downloads in peak, so your download schedules will have to fire off after hours, making this account great for all day gaming, streaming, VPN connections, browsing etc and suitable for off peak downloading.

 

[saa044]

I don't want *another* account... They send me enough spam already (usage emails) that they can't stop due to a "bug." I don't want *more* spam, I didn't ask to be spammed, and neither did I give them permission to spam me either.

Every single time there's a problem, here have a new account.... I'm sorry but this is turning into OpenWeb 2.0...

"*another* account" and yes I agree it is not nice, especially from a officially launched ISP. Although the dilemma is, Crystal Web has not launched yet, thus everything CW is still in beta phase. Now obviously you have known this from the get go and for that reason you must cut them some slack and give them a chance to get their product sorted out which they were kinda forced to launch under the covers so to say.

 

[savage]

In fact savage, please show us the run-of-the-mill traceroutes, out of interest sake.

Traceroutes and pings means nothing as they are prioritized, and nothing is wrong with ICMP latency in order to keep the gamers happy. It's very easy to have a 10ms ping, and less than 100kb/s of throughput on TCP traffic...

Just moved on and signed up somewhere else, my internet is thankfully pure bliss again. It's amazing, I almost forgot what it should be like...

 

[saa044]

OK so I've taken your suggestions on board, and we've discussed a product that may in fact be suitable at the same or similar price points that will block peer to peer during peak, allows better support for VPN connections, and will simply shape http downloads during peak as well.

Would this be a suitable bridge to fill the needs for those of you with VPN and concerns about shaping peer to peer?

Essentially this account would block peer to peer and shape http downloads in peak, so your download schedules will have to fire off after hours, making this account great for all day gaming, streaming, VPN connections, browsing etc and suitable for off peak downloading.

As long as I can stream and game a bit i am happy.

 

[slasherjdc]

OK so I've taken your suggestions on board, and we've discussed a product that may in fact be suitable at the same or similar price points that will block peer to peer during peak, allows better support for VPN connections, and will simply shape http downloads during peak as well.

Would this be a suitable bridge to fill the needs for those of you with VPN and concerns about shaping peer to peer?

Essentially this account would block peer to peer and shape http downloads in peak, so your download schedules will have to fire off after hours, making this account great for all day gaming, streaming, VPN connections, browsing etc and suitable for off peak downloading.

rename your new account entry level account then remove your entry level accounts entirely, someone would have to be stupid to buy your entry level at the same price.

 

[patrick123]

OK so I've taken your suggestions on board, and we've discussed a product that may in fact be suitable at the same or similar price points that will block peer to peer during peak, allows better support for VPN connections, and will simply shape http downloads during peak as well.

Would this be a suitable bridge to fill the needs for those of you with VPN and concerns about shaping peer to peer?

Essentially this account would block peer to peer and shape http downloads in peak, so your download schedules will have to fire off after hours, making this account great for all day gaming, streaming, VPN connections, browsing etc and suitable for off peak downloading.

Yep, am interested, though cannot complain about my existing service, since my current VPN requirements/needs are already met. Main server in Cape Town, me, sitting in Sunny Gauteng, relatively low traffic, what more could I ask for.

 

[Crystal Web]

rename your new account entry level account then remove your entry level accounts entirely, someone would have to be stupid to buy your entry level at the same price.

Our current accounts are priced more competitively than most other ISPs and offer better value - this would too to those who require it.

 

[saa044]

Traceroutes and pings means nothing as they are prioritized, and nothing is wrong with ICMP latency in order to keep the gamers happy. It's very easy to have a 10ms ping, and less than 100kb/s of throughput on TCP traffic...

Just moved on and signed up somewhere else, my internet is thankfully pure bliss again. It's amazing, I almost forgot what it should be like...

Until they shape / throttle you.

 

[Crystal Web]

Yes you already told me that we are not paying for your entry level accounts last week and that we are on standard accounts.

What gets to me is your "entry level" accounts seem to be unethical, you said you won't block p2p because people don't want that ...instead you unblock it but kill our whole connection if we try to use it.(50kbps on 10mbps is less than 5% of your advertised speed.)
If you don't want us to use it either block it or just throttle p2p ny itself. don't try to force the average user to upgrade by making entry level as unpleasant as possible

You think our standard uncapped is unpleasant? It's unshaped if you schedule your downloads. I really am not following you. Moreover we're now looking at an alternate solution based on the feedback, so I don't understand your statement.

Please talk to Paul instead from now on.

 

[slasherjdc]

You think our standard uncapped is unpleasant? It's unshaped if you schedule your downloads. I really am not following you.

Please talk to Paul instead from now on.

That's not what i said :/
i said that your entry level account that shapes your whole connection to 50kb if p2p is detected is unpleasant.
i schedule my downloads. but your entry level is unforgiving to even unintended p2p.
not all of us can completely prevent p2p. we can limit it via QoS but blocking it entirely requires expensive hardware which is not something people who can only afford entry level can budget for and even in those cases they are better of upgrading the account.

 

[Paul Hjul]

if the concept of entry level accounts appears unethical to you there really is little we can do to change that appearance. From inception we have been incredibly open as to our position in support of product diversity and that we will continuously look at what product diversification will make business sense. I can state without fear of contradiction that this company is premised on an ardent belief in proper free market capitalism where companies go out of their way to look for ways to boost profit margin without behaving dishonestly. This produces the best result for the consumer. This is also why we are supportive of other ISPs in this market who also strive to make money and serve their customers and there is considerable overlap and construction of an ecosystem. The suggestion of unethical conduct is pretty damn offensive and frankly makes any discussion cordial at best. We have always expressed - both as Crystal Web and as individuals - that we believe in customer choice and are supportive of tiered services as one size does not and cannot fit all: as demonstrated in the last dozen or so posts on this thread. We have hitherto not been able to present a full range of products as part of a broader product development process.

 

[saa044]

That's not what i said :/
i said that your entry level account that shapes your whole connection to 50kb if p2p is detected is unpleasant.
i schedule my downloads. but your entry level is unforgiving to even unintended p2p.
not all of us can completely prevent p2p. we can limit it via QoS but blocking it entirely requires expensive hardware which is not something people who can only afford entry level can budget for and even in those cases they are better of upgrading the account.

R600 is not that expensive.

 

[Crystal Web]

R600 is not that expensive.

For a 10Mbps account, it's not, and when compared with other offerings in the same price-bracket, our service offers far better value, with options to avoid being shaped, and options for other more suitable products in a similar price bracket, and options for better suited products if need be.

Where the confusion is coming in is customers seem think that this is an entry-level product ala other ISPs' shaped to death 24/7 sort of product, when it's not. It's a product that lets you effectively remain unshaped - just schedule your downloads. And we're now going to address the concerns raised by potentially introducing a similarly priced product.

Essentially all ISPs are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. If customers want uncapped, unshaped, un-managed, we'll sell that too. Nobody will afford it, but you can have it if you'd like.

As I said in my previous post - we have taken all feedback on board, bent over backwards to keep everyone happy, are now introducing our full product suite and it's causing some confusion for some people, which is really frustrating, as it's not a complex issue. Shaping will be applied on ONE specific product we're introducing as a part of a wider range of products - this shaping allows users who schedule their downloads properly to experience effectively unshaped internet at a price-point well below other similar products. If you peer to peer during the day however, you will be shaped, and not to the levels inferred in the thread so far either. You are not throttled. High traffic protocols are shaped.

If this product does not suit your needs, just hang on and await official news of the product range instead - you will be catered for. We've so far not let you down in this respect, and we will continue to strive to maintain this moving forward.

 

[Anakha56]

Holy smokes I finally got to the end...

I can see where Slasher is coming from because I know without a shadow of doubt that when the December holidays start my wife's parents are going to be in for a world of hurt. The youngest will be down from JHB, get utorrent started and just whack the line and then the parents are left helpless. :/ @CW would it be possible to have an alert system in place? Send off a mail when the usage is detected and getting high and if it still doesn't stop then shape? Not sure how you would time it but it might make Slashers life easier if he gets a email first so he can nail his roommate .

TBH I have been loving my account, my only issue/complaint is the "schedule the big downloads for after hours." AFAIK both Steam & Blizzard & other clients don't have the capability to schedule the download it just happens. So how would we sort that out? For me it would be a case of start the download, exit the client, create a scheduled task to run the app at "X" time and then let it download. Not the cleanest solution but it could work. Side question, downloading big http file's during the day? How should that be handled? If a new ROM/iOS update is released I want it now and those can be anywhere from 500mb to 1.7gb...

As I said I am loving my account and I don't want to change so my p2p will happen at night and stream will happen at day. Roms will just be done on the sly and hope CW's shaper is watching Slasher and not me .

 

[Crystal Web]

Holy smokes I finally got to the end...

I can see where Slasher is coming from because I know without a shadow of doubt that when the December holidays start my wife's parents are going to be in for a world of hurt. The youngest will be down from JHB, get utorrent started and just whack the line and then the parents are left helpless. :/ @CW would it be possible to have an alert system in place? Send off a mail when the usage is detected and getting high and if it still doesn't stop then shape? Not sure how you would time it but it might make Slashers life easier if he gets a email first so he can nail his roommate .

We'll be accused of spamming people again.

It is possible but it requires some further custom development, and would require some serious resources to poll everyone's connections at all times and monitor for specific traffic, then link it to our automated mail system. For little reward - where we stand is as long as we're open and transparent about this, customers can ensure that they schedule their downloads accordingly. But this is not to say that Slasher will be on this specific account - this is just one product in a range.

TBH I have been loving my account, my only issue/complaint is the "schedule the big downloads for after hours." AFAIK both Steam & Blizzard & other clients don't have the capability to schedule the download it just happens. So how would we sort that out? For me it would be a case of start the download, exit the client, create a scheduled task to run the app at "X" time and then let it download. Not the cleanest solution but it could work. Side question, downloading big http file's during the day? How should that be handled? If a new ROM/iOS update is released I want it now and those can be anywhere from 500mb to 1.7gb...

This is where it gets a little tricky - an http download won't trigger the shaping on other protocols, but letting games run full line speed for what could be 50GB at a time is a concern, and something we're looking at. Gamers who need to update hundreds of gigs at line speed at any time of the day may need a gaming account designed specifically for this.

 

[Crystal Web]

shaun said last week that we were currently not paying for entry level so i think the price point is actually lower.

Huh? We're losing money on every single customer at the moment. Every single ONE!

And we're okay with that for now. As we see it, this is a necessary investment. With respect to our internal costs, we have never disclosed that to you, nor anyone else for that matter bar a few partners and trusted individuals.

 

[saa044]

Sigh. Point missed. Your entry level accounts are not what i was finding unethical...it was that you said the only reason you werent blocking p2p and instead punishing with severe blanket shaping is because a small group of people would be against blocking p2p. even though your solution was far worse and punished everyone instead.

shaun said last week that we were currently not paying for entry level so i think the price point is actually lower.
i never said i wanted more....i just meant the reason they gave for shaping everything upon detection does not make sense in the slightest.

LOL I was referring to the RB750, when you said the expensive equipment.

 

[slasherjdc]

LOL I was referring to the RB750, when you said the expensive equipment.

Actually....can it even block p2p entirely?(i mean even the ones with randomized ports.)

 

[saa044]

Actually....can it even block p2p entirely?(i mean even the ones with randomized ports.)

It can take the x bandwidth a user used and mail him a invoice, it is after all running a version of Linux. And yes you can block it very easy. Mangle rule and Nat rule is all that's needed.

 

[StevenC]

The last few pages of this thread if anyone wants a recap:


It's this kind of ***** that made OW finally pack up and leave the forums. DJ and Paul, I know you claim tough skins, but for how long? May I offer you kind sirs some cheese with the whine you are having?

And yeah, sure, it's valid feedback that does actually help shape (cwutididthar.jpg) the product offerings. But to completely rip in to what's on offer AT THE MOMENT which is literally one account, prelaunch is just ridiculous. Far be it from me to leap to CW's defense, I usually take the hardline as well when answers are not forthcoming. They have been nothing but honest with us, and I know personally from my retail experience - you can't please all the people all the time.

So yeah, you want uncapped, unshaped? Pay for it. It will be available.
Like ANY OTHER ISP out there, the standard account does not seem right for you.

What they are doing is quite fair, and to be honest, kind of like what Openweb's initial promises / offerings were to us. Unshaped most of the times, shaped under heavy load, real time prioritised, gaming prioritised and most of all, well priced. Then OW pulled a sneaky, shared all the accounts, shaped the *** out of everything and support took a dive. Openweb was actually good for a time, and I hope that CW takes all the good that they did and builds upon it. To call them Openweb 2 though, nah, thats a *** one. OW has all but died in the eyes of MyBB, and CW are here to start a new ISP. Not from the ashes of the fallen, but from a point of having run the ISP gauntlet (like all of us) and deciding they can do it better.

What they don't need is all the rubbish customers who rape and pillage their line speeds 24/7 (streeeeeeeam 1080p yaya). I am glad they are not wearing kid gloves when it comes to customer interaction. It's refreshing to see them not dodge or dance around questions. Trial by fire here on MyBB seems to be a very good way of getting your product line in order.

And dammit, launch already! This would be easier if people knew what they were in for. Me? I am sticking it out here for as long as possible Very keen to see the product line up and more importantly, price. If the current uncapped, unshaped were available at an affordable enough price, I would definitely be in. I don't like the "OW P2P shaping policy" anymore than the next guy, but I understand it's a necessary evil. I just don't see how NNTP is any different to an HTTP download (other than size?). I am sure one could find large scale HTTP downloads if needed

Ok long post. Sleep time. Hopefully all the other babies have been put down for the night