STS
Mafia Detective
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now let's look at history... they're all europeans right? cool, just checking
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Dear White People
- Thread starter daveza
- Start date
now let's look at history... they're all europeans right? cool, just checking
purpleonlineadmin
Senior Member
Do you really need an answer there? I didn't say a single entity controls the economy, i said the minority are still controlling the economy. Single entity would mean only Caucasians control the economy which isn't true, but they control the majority of the economy when they only make up 20% of the population? And that is ideal in your opinion? Your opinion so you have a right to it.
Agreed on OBE being a dismal failure, but OBE isn't the only reason black people are poor, or still in the majority poor, it is a reason that PROLONGED that situation and made it worse when it should have been better. Even with OBE (introduced a year after I matriculated, the students were only in Grade 10 at the time), would mean the students have only been in the job market for 5-7 years (this not factoring in 3-4 years in varsity). So are you really going to blame OBE for why lower classes are not getting better and call it Bantu Education? Come on! and which point was it that you tried to make so I can understand?
Ideally because of BBEE and AA yes, but realistically? Move away from the PC for a week or so and go into townships or even in the suburbs and really really look at the type of jobs blacks/coloureds/indians work in compared to Caucasians. It's still a huge huge gap where you could complain about losing a job as a developer to another race, when most of those professionals, are working tills or jobs that they could have worked with their matric alone. This is something I can back up and gladly give you a list of places you can visit to see for yourself if you think I'm being bias because of my shoulder chippy lol[/QUOTE]
Am I arguing AA? Clearly you arguing on the "plight" of Caucasians and the injustice BBEE and AA is doing against you. Let me ask YOU a personal question because I don't want to assume anything as I do not know you. What do your grandparents and parents do? What do you do? With that in hand, let's say you are not able to find work and AA and BBEE has put you out of market (mind you I have seen dozens and dozens of jobs that are not even AA, or those that specifically request "afrikaans speakers", but let's say you are totally out of market, no dime to your name and this is the injustice of AA, is there a possibility you will go to bed hungry or have no roof over your head? Mind you if the same thing happened to me, even though it would be a blow to my ego, my situation makes it comfortable enough for me to have my parents to be there until I got back on my feet.
Now the most likeliest situation to pan out for most out there is if they do live with a parent or grandparent guess what? They live on grannies pension or whatever our taxes provide, for an ENTIRE month. Around R1 200.00? (someone will have to back this up for me)... Now tell me if you alone can live on R1 200, let alone support a grown man out of a job on that same amount? Now for people looking in without seeing the impact of that situation it's easy to say "well I should get the job on merit", and yes on principle you should TBH, but you will still have plenty of options (kinda like the Woolworths fiasco, guess what, go apply at PnP or Checkers!), while someone on that R1 200+- situation will last how long before their spirit gets broken? Already as is it's hard for you to grasp AA and the idea of being out of a job period, now imagine the status quo which has created a situation where those in expensive school's getting better marks, better attention, better options even after school vs an average achiever by your standards (the guys who do meet your standards are so few and far between esp in poorer skules), now not even being given a boost just because you feel it's unfair. It is, just like it is unfair to anyone to live off any type of grant or live off anyone on a type of grant that can't even sustain one person decently. Now you still want to cry wolf and say I have a chip on my shoulder? We can take a drive and you can come meet real poor people, and doesn't even have to be black, we'll meet poor coloureds or even our definition of "middle class".
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saksakgp
Expert Member
In all your posts you identify problems and situations that make you unhappy. You then go on to hold white people responsible and you go as far as asking them why they haven't made an effort to understand the real situation(whatever that is). That's blame.
White people didn't get to where there are overnight. It took them centuries of development to get to where there are today. Most of what exist in the world today originated from white peoples minds. Of cause whites borrowed knowledge from various people and places but you can't deny that most of the knowledge created in the last couple of centuries was created by whites.
You need to accept that for any person to succeed in this modern life they need knowledge, and you can't blame anyone if you don't have knowledge. It's not white peoples fault that they know how to design and build high-rise buildings, cars, power stations, roads, dams, computers etc and blacks don't. Whites can do all those things today because centuries ago some whites in Europe sat in their little study rooms and spent sleepless nights trying to figure out the principles of science behind all that you see today. These principles where then passed on to others through education but it's not a black persons right or anybody else right to be taught Newton's laws of motion. But if you where fortunate enough to be taught Newton's laws and many other more complicated principles then maybe you would've been the technical guy called in to design and build some black persons vague idea of a medium speed train between Jozi and PTA.
It's noble to show concern about the inequalities but you need to understand that those inequalities stem from disparity in knowledge. It's futile to complain about how whites earn six times more than blacks and yet when you have to design and build a stadium for the worldcup you are forced to use white architects and white engineers simply because they are the ones who currently have sufficient knowledge.
Lets do a thought experiment: imagine that we take 100 000 randomly selected white people and relocate them to some uninhibited island, we also take 100 000 randomly selected black people and relocate them to another uninhibited island. We leave the two groups in their islands and only return 100 years later to see how they have progressed. How do you think the two islands will be?
murraybiscuit
Executive Member
That road may just end up at social Darwinism, which isn't very palatable. My take is that you're underplaying environmental causal factors. Read Jared Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel for a balancing viewpoint, I think you'll enjoy it.
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murraybiscuit
Executive Member
purpleonlineadmin
Senior Member
Which short time spans because Germany in the 1960's was still busy with urban developments? Even within their market boom Germany as a country was still growing and had not reached it's peak periods as you would wishfully think, in the 60's the boom slowed down due to the Berlin Wall and the "barrier" of East German labour.
How were race relations in those first 20 years too with jews? It's pretty easy selecting an economic boom that was even greater than Nazi era, and give credit to "because they were Europeans" alone. Many factors contributed to the economic growth of Germany, just like South Africa also has it's positives in it's economic growth in certain areas (and sadly the current stagnation and downfall of other industries). In their first 20 years they were not "done" as you want to emphasize, they were still developing the country (West Germany for all the technical people out there), but with the boom of West Germany what happened to East Germany? Did Africans rule East Germany?
As far as Russia it took 10 years for the economy to recover, and took another 15-20 years for stability which lasted until the the 70's and we all know where the USSR ended up. Or was the USSR ruled by Africans too? This directed at @STS
Please read development as is, the ANC is doing an appalling job, but don't paint "Europeans did miracles while Africans didn't" hogwash when they were also in periods of constant development even 20 years into post war Europe!
Economic History of Germany (West Germany)
Economic History of Russa/USSR
murraybiscuit
Executive Member
Other than speculating on who's to blame and pointing fingers on the status quo, what exactly is your end goal, what would your key policy changes be to get there, and how would you know when you've arrived? It's a competitive world out there. China and India aren't taking any prisoners
purpleonlineadmin
Senior Member
So with your logic are you saying that black people will naturally not be able to do anything because white people are already knowledgeable and blacks aren't? lol
What kind of education does this kid have when he built this?
Or this chap
In the current climate Caucasians have the head start, a head start that was created out of racial policies not because black people were "slower" or whatever point you trying to make, I also gave daveza the very simple example on The Royal Ba***eng development, which stemmed from a group of black people who outsmarted these native acts and look at them now. Are the Royal Ba***eng not more ahead and more developed then King Zwelethini's and his people (who depend on government aids to sustain them)? Did the Royal Ba***eng not also build stadia and own football clubs and hotels? Ideals and ideas you say would put "white people ahead on a remote island" just because they "more knowledgable now"?
Given the same "ideal" conditions and taking the same skilled workers in different aspects would probably create 2 similar islands with the balance and shift of power perhaps going back and forth. In reality from your random sample you have to take account that Architects would have to be present in the white batch to build houses, scientists and technicians to create the necessary medicines and networks etc. and from the black or other race groups you assuming in the 1000 group would have unskilled labourers and uneducated people. In reality black people can do things even without a chance at being educated, every race has this ability if they need to survive and flourish. Timbuktu, Nubia, Egypt, D'mat, these were empires that loooooooooong existed before European assimilation, that were African. As far as the industrialization era, this is where Europeans pulled ahead, and pulled ahead on the sweat of natives, be it blacks, indian, native american etc, but enough with a history lesson...
My point from your statement alone:
"imagine that we take 100 000 randomly selected white people and relocate them to some uninhibited island, we also take 100 000 randomly selected black people and relocate them to another uninhibited island."
You assuming black people (or in my case, blacks/coloureds/indians included) would not have the capability to build a thriving civilization if both were given the same amount of people on an empty island. Your theory or statement would then have to erase all African history when Africans certainly were producing super powers. You also leave out the fact that as myself and someone else also said in another thread (who is smarter between blacks and whites I think), you assumption is subjective and assumes that the above links I also gave you would have to be invalid and out of 100 000 black people, the number of those uneducated would be beggers and wait for hand outs too right, and not be able to build their own motorized transportation without a degree, or radio's? While the educated caucasians would be able to do everything and anything because they more "knowledgable"?
Hmmmmm
Kosmik
Honorary Master
The fail is strong in this one. Here's a hint WW1 -> WWII
*edit* actually let me make that even shorter.
Great Depression -> WWII
TheHiveMind
Banned
I didn't say that, you laughingly compared our progression to that of Germany or Russia, and how they took forever to accomplish significant economic, industrial and social changes, except they didn't. There are very impressive examples of them leap frogging in various aspects within short time spans. Not sure why you chose them.
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purpleonlineadmin
Senior Member
Other than speculating on who's to blame and pointing fingers on the status quo, what exactly is your end goal, what would your key policy changes be to get there, and how would you know when you've arrived? It's a competitive world out there. China and India aren't taking any prisoners
and I agree with murraybiscuit in that there needs to be goals laid out and when not met a new way is found. China did not build it's power on depending on Americans or Japanese, it's about standing on your own 2 feet, but how do those who weren't given the opportunities supposed to create them now?
Opportunities and Chances are not just luck, it's about who you know, who can provide you with something and what you can provide in return to sustain the boom. It won't be some magical process, dozens of schools are still underdeveloped, with this is mind who will develop them when the system in itself does nothing to change the processes or makes them worse? It's the reality of the world sadly, just because Orlando High can produce 4-5 distinction students right now won't create jobs in the immediate future for all 5 "out of fairness". It's ideal but not realistic especially when humans are still a species that makes most decisions based on emotions and "first impressions".
From my impression from this thread alone it's already clear, confidence in blacks/coloureds or any other race, is nowhere near where "fairness" will differentiate who gets which job based on just their education alone. Most software developers or programmers on MyBB who ever been through the job hunting process already know it's just not that easy than just sticking a piece of paper with your high percentile marks (black or white). It's how you speak, how you carry yourself, and prior experience. First hurdle that wouldn't even be a factor for most english speakers would be accents from township/village dwellers vs eloquent speakers, impression 1 depending on interviewee could be down the drain. It's the world we live in period!
purpleonlineadmin
Senior Member
Why is it hogwash? because you don't believe it and what you say makes it Gospel? or the fact that regardless of what you have you still want more and those with less should work harder to have what you have?
purpleonlineadmin
Senior Member
So you saying Europeans developed quicker than RSA between WWI and WWII? Or specifically Germans? Lol didn't Hitler himself play on the emotions of a populace to exterminate Jews, because of the economic issues of Germany?:wtf: Didn't the shift of power to Nazism because of the the Great Depression and economic downturn?
Nazism
Nazi Germany, Seizure of Power
Germany was in economic turmoil, and the conditions created by Treaty of Versaille, which laid the foundations for Hitler to take power, and lay the blame on certain groups, why the heck do you think socialism/fascism/nationalism became so popular in Europe in the 1920's/1930's? Not only in Germany by Italy and Spain too? Because of the social and economic health of Europe? and I failed? You trying to argue the failures of South Africa by comparing them to the reason why World War 2 broke out?
Unless ofcourse you want to elaborate and I didn't understand your question
purpleonlineadmin
Senior Member
Lol did I say forever or use the same 20 year time span? :wtf:
TheHiveMind
Banned
So you saying Europeans developed quicker than RSA between WWI and WWII? Or specifically Germans? Lol didn't Hitler himself play on the emotions of a populace to exterminate Jews, because of the economic issues of Germany?:wtf: Didn't the shift of power to Nazism because of the the Great Depression and economic downturn?
Nazism
Nazi Germany, Seizure of Power
Germany was in economic turmoil, and the conditions created by Treaty of Versaille, which laid the foundations for Hitler to take power, and lay the blame on certain groups, why the heck do you think socialism/fascism/nationalism became so popular in Europe in the 1920's/1930's? Not only in Germany by Italy and Spain too? Because of the social and economic health of Europe? and I failed? You trying to argue the failures of South Africa by comparing them to the reason why World War 2 broke out?
Unless ofcourse you want to elaborate and I didn't understand your question
Why doesn't South Africa just become a super power then? Apparently that's just something that comes easily when you hit rock bottom.
purpleonlineadmin
Senior Member
Exactly. I have used 3 races in my arguments because regardless of statements like @STS, I do not argue for blacks alone but for every person in lower classes, put there by circumstances not because they stupid or slower to adapt. In South Africa it happens to be blacks, coloureds and indians. Now given the opportunity, can't those people prove to be a rags to riches story too? How will leaving class status quo's uplift lower classes when the government itself is also failing them?
purpleonlineadmin
Senior Member
That's what you say, if I had the formula to that, old chap, I'd be a very very wealthy person. South Africa is progressing, but slower than it should, Germany in their 20 years post trauma, was also developing, I just do not understand or grasp this "well it's already 20 years get over it already" talk, especially when it comes to racial inequalities.
I loved that you (or someone in here) even brought up Jews earlier and their fast economic development, where is Israel and Palestine today as far as race or religious relations? It won't take 20 years to fix things especially when it comes to class inequalities. It seems realistic when it suits certain people but idealistic with others. South Africa for what it has should have a more racially diversified economic spectrum. Funny enough no one here can even point back to me saying white people must lose jobs for blacks to gain them. I said other races need similar opportunities, why is it such a huge problem to see more blacks, coloureds and indians earn more? Look at one of the factors the USA hit it's economic boom after WW2, more people, especially women worked = more taxes and a government with goals and visions. We might not become the USA, but the mere fact we within the BRICS nations shows the development potential we could achieve.
Are people that oblivious to the fact that as it stands, economically the scales are terribly tilted? and this is fine? Or is it a point that as long as the menial jobs are for the lower classes it's fine, leave the bigger toys to the bigger boys?
I can see people throwing hissy fits in here, but what exactly are you fighting or debating against? You don't want AA? You don't want to lose your job to another race because of the colour of your skin? Earth to everyone in here, South Africa didn't invent affirmative action or the only country to have AA policies to address tilts, including even some European or American countries, be it gender or race. Or is it a sore thumb because it's not in the best interests of the upper class? The best way to not be affected by AA policies is to live in a country that deems it illegal. So skip a few countries in my link.
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Albereth
Honorary Master
It isn't the chip that is balanced.
Has nothing to do with technology doing the 'censoring'. You had figured that out on your own. So where is my insult?
Albereth
Honorary Master
You probably do need to go on. Persia isn't part of Africa. I don't recall that the Nubians contributed much in the way of historical accounts and the Egyptians had a rather insular view on things. That leaves the Europeans as the recorders of sub Saharan history. Not exactly a balanced view. But then most of early western civilization was recorded by conquerors and usually many years after the events.
The sort of makes moot any point you may have had about the real history, and not what was read. The real history is lost or distorted. But seeing that a broken watch is right twice a day, those history books are useful. Except where they contradict a point you are trying to make.
Kosmik
Honorary Master
So you saying Europeans developed quicker than RSA between WWI and WWII? Or specifically Germans? Lol didn't Hitler himself play on the emotions of a populace to exterminate Jews, because of the economic issues of Germany?:wtf: Didn't the shift of power to Nazism because of the the Great Depression and economic downturn?
Nazism
Nazi Germany, Seizure of Power
Germany was in economic turmoil, and the conditions created by Treaty of Versaille, which laid the foundations for Hitler to take power, and lay the blame on certain groups, why the heck do you think socialism/fascism/nationalism became so popular in Europe in the 1920's/1930's? Not only in Germany by Italy and Spain too? Because of the social and economic health of Europe? and I failed? You trying to argue the failures of South Africa by comparing them to the reason why World War 2 broke out?
Unless ofcourse you want to elaborate and I didn't understand your question
Germany turned itself around from a country severely affected by the great depression to a war machine that once again challenged the world. I don't agree with the motives behind it but imagine if the same effort was put into play in this country? Taiwan, I think it was is also famous for their "5 year plan" which lead the country to vastly increased economic wealth and prosperity. Back to Germany, for any country, over the period of 100 years, to be able to tackle the world with a strong enough war machine, not once but twice and still recover so that in the next century they are once again a financial powerhouse that other countries now BEG to get loans from is quite an amazing acheivement.
The point I'm making is that countries can and have turned their economic situations around in relatively short periods of time. It's not impossible, it's certainly do-able but both the government and the population are required to make it work.