'Don't blame apartheid'

[IamCanadian]

Well Jozi101 is a figment of mine.

Sometimes I wonder if half the posters here are really who that claim to be and not some agent of some sort. After all some people make really DUMB statements. Like they are talking from their anus!

Maybe Jozi really is an Afrikaner or a whitey trying to stir the pot. It's not as is this hasn't happened before.

We will never really know.

 

[Xarog]

I preferred the De Klerk washing powder, the one that opened up the path for democracy in this country, rather than the one with the swatstika type insignia with a horse as a company car, but then I am a selfish white person.

No.

I fully grant that there really were people who wanted to see the end of a really really scummy regime.

My point is that you can't ignore a legacy when it's right in front of you.

Tibby said :

And your parents voted to maintain a facist police state based on racism .... I guess their children which would be you are now merely reaping what they sowed eh ???.

He was speaking in general and he does speak the truth. It's undeniably true that white people allowed the National Party to remain in power.

Conversely, what skeptik said was correct too :

You generation were busy burning down the schools weren't they. Then they toyi-toyed in protest at the lack of facilities. I guess your children are reaping what their parents sowed eh?

I can understand that white people as a whole allowed the NP to stay in power without violent resistance. I can also understand that black people as a whole created an uneducated generation because of their resistance to the apartheid regime.

In a perfect world, the whites would have never tolerated something as evil as Apartheid, and black people would not have allowed their anger to blind them to the fact that in refusing an education they are only hurting themselves, and would not today have an expectation of getting something for nothing.

But the world is not perfect, and this is the mess we are dealing with. If you don't accept the mess for what it is, then you're never going to be able to clean up this mess.

For black people, I would say that involves realising that achievement and success only comes with hard work. For white people, I would say that they should be tolerant of the current situation because of the past, and as a whole help a new generation to become educated so that we don't collectively commit the sins of our parents.

I wish that black people would act in the spirit of Ubuntu. I wish that white afrikaners would pick up the mantle of being an independent and proud people instead of the eternal victimhood complex they seem to be forming (De la Rey , De la Rey, give us a leader please because we're lost ). Victimhood complexes make you behave as if you're threatened even when you're not, and ultimately it means you become blind to your victimisation of others.

For the english speakers, I dunno, maybe just a bit of tolerance.

Not that any of this means that we should suddenly swallow it when political leaders blame their own failures on apartheid. That would be trying to sweep reality under the rug again.

 

[Jozi101]

I served in the Military Police and if what you say is true, that "we fought a war that did not exist", then I suppose by your logic, the Cuban and Russian POW's that I dealt with were a figment of my imagination.

Dumba**

Probably. You see if you say something to yourself often enough, even if it doesn't exist, you eventually start believing it. That's the reason why so many whites were duped into accepting apartheid in the first place. It's called the politics of fear.

 

[Sneeky]

Xarog, seeing as though we are generally speaking, sorry but the only people with a victimhood complex are the previously disadvantaged groups.
We will be 100 years on in the future and these people will still be pointing backwards to the legacy of apartheid for their own shortcomings.

The white people of this country are not the enemy of the state. The ruling party and it's allies though are quick to point to white people and label opposition parties white whenever they are challenged. They are the ones bringing race into debates, generally speaking.

You cannot move forwards if you keep looking back and blaming the past.
I think this is the crux of the initial post and the ministers comment.

Talk education, I would love to see every single teacher in South Africa today take the same exams as the children they are teaching at the same time considering the fact that the teachers should know 100% of what is being asked in the exam.
I would wager that a substantial number of these 'teachers' wont even pass, let alone get over 80%.
How can we expect the kids to pass if the teachers don't know what the hell is going on. This has nothing to do with apartheid.

 

[Xarog]

Xarog, seeing as though we are generally speaking, sorry but the only people with a victimhood complex are the previously disadvantaged groups.

Tell that to the ton of white people who believe they're being victimised by the new regime.

We will be 100 years on in the future and these people will still be pointing backwards to the legacy of apartheid for their own shortcomings.

Some, yes.

The white people of this country are not the enemy of the state.

True.

The ruling party and it's allies though are quick to point to white people and label opposition parties white whenever they are challenged. They are the ones bringing race into debates, generally speaking.

Also true.

You cannot move forwards if you keep looking back and blaming the past.
I think this is the crux of the initial post and the ministers comment.

I don't know what her intent was, but I can agree with the statement you said in the beginning.

Talk education, I would love to see every single teacher in South Africa today take the same exams as the children they are teaching at the same time considering the fact that the teachers should know 100% of what is being asked in the exam.

A nice sentiment, but teachers only need to impart the knowledge, and as long as they have the books and materials with them to teach competently, they can fail the exam while still doing a good job the rest of the time.

I would wager that a substantial number of these 'teachers' wont even pass, let alone get over 80%.

Perhaps, but it's a pointless wager. Rather test the teachers on their teaching ability.

How can we expect the kids to pass if the teachers don't know what the hell is going on. This has nothing to do with apartheid.

Not entirely true. The bantu education system caused a disparity between education levels. The current government tried to correct this disparity, but mostly they just managed to drag everything down to the same level. At least for the students currently in the system at the time of change, such a dramatic increase in expectations wrt to subject content and exams would have caused them all to fail. To some degree that's exactly what DID happen.

Education is a HUGE mess right now and unfortunately there's no magic bullet solution for it at this time.

 

[Jozi101]

Xarog, seeing as though we are generally speaking, sorry but the only people with a victimhood complex are the previously disadvantaged groups.

I disagree. Who's always crying foul about their language not being protected when it's actually african languges that need to be uplifted? Who's always crying foul about Affirmative action and BEE when the bulk of the economy remains in their hands? We're not wanted in this country, blah blah blah!

We will be 100 years on in the future and these people will still be pointing backwards to the legacy of apartheid for their own shortcomings.

I think we shouldn't even try to compare the enourmity of the task facing the current government to that which was done by the previuos. Apartheid was all about servicing 4 million people, and F**#K the rest. The democratic government is for "everyone" though you wouldn't think it if you listened to some people's comments.

The white people of this country are not the enemy of the state.

Nobody has ever said that.

They are the ones bringing race into debates, generally speaking.

Actually the white's introduced and perfected race based politics in this country. If we're ever gonna undo that damage, we dare not remove race from the agenda.

I would wager that a substantial number of these 'teachers' wont even pass, let alone get over 80%.
How can we expect the kids to pass if the teachers don't know what the hell is going on. This has nothing to do with apartheid.

What are you basing this on?

 

[Jozi101]

For black people, I would say that involves realising that achievement and success only comes with hard work.

I am deeply offended by this statement. Are you implying that we don't know this?

 

[Sneeky]

If a maths or science teacher does not understand the subject themselves they cannot teach it to anyone.
The money is there, mismanagement and the departments own shortcomings and staff are the major problem.

Get people that know what they are doing.
If our government had put as much focus on education as it did on SARS in the last 12 years we would be on easy street today.
The only true empowerment comes through education, nothing else comes close.

 

[Xarog]

I am deeply offended by this statement. Are you implying that we don't know this?

I'm implying that a side-effect of this whole mess was a sense of entitlement. That black people deserved what the white man had, without the realisation that all black people really deserved was the opportunity to EARN what the white man had.

If you find that offensive, I'm sorry, but it IS the truth.

 

[Jozi101]

If a maths or science teacher does not understand the subject themselves they cannot teach it to anyone.
The money is there, mismanagement and the departments own shortcomings and staff are the major problem.

Get people that know what they are doing.
If our government had put as much focus on education as it did on SARS in the last 12 years we would be on easy street today.
The only true empowerment comes through education, nothing else comes close.

Again i have to ask, where do you get the idea that maths teachers don't understand maths, or that they don't know what they're doing?

Edit: I have never been taught by a maths teacher who didn't understand maths. That's why i'm so worried by your all so informed statement. I think we should refrain from making such wild statements that are not based on any facts.

 

[Jozi101]

I'm implying that a side-effect of this whole mess was a sense of entitlement. That black people deserved what the white man had, without the realisation that all black people really deserved was the opportunity to EARN what the white man had.

If you find that offensive, I'm sorry, but it IS the truth.

No, this is your opinion and it is mot true.

 

[rwenzori]

Again i have to ask, where do you get the idea that maths teachers don't understand maths, or that they don't know what they're doing?

Edit: I have never been taught by a maths teacher who didn't understand maths. That's why i'm so worried by your all so informed statement. I think we should refrain from making such wild statements that are not based on any facts.

It's a bit old but here's something:

According to findings in the Mathematics and Science Audit (1999), more than 50% of mathematics teachers and 68% of science teachers have no formal subject training in these subjects. Although they are properly qualified as teachers, their training in teaching mathematics or science is inadequate.

http://www.info.gov.za/speeches/2001/010813245p1001.htm

I'm sure there is more if you Google.

 

[rwenzori]

If we're ever gonna undo that damage, we dare not remove race from the agenda.

IMHO that is exactly what we need to do. As long as we continue to think in racial terms, and talk about race, and debate race, we will never escape from racial prejudice. We need just to be people and citizens, not white ones, black ones, brown ones, whatever ones.

Tough for the ANC who love to bring race into everything - almost "Wit Gevaar"!! LOL.

 

[Sneeky]

I disagree. Who's always crying foul about their language not being protected when it's actually african languges that need to be uplifted? Who's always crying foul about Affirmative action and BEE when the bulk of the economy remains in their hands? We're not wanted in this country, blah blah blah!

Disagreement noted.

The Afrikaners will realise that they will have to cater for their own, as other minority groups do around the world. Afrikaans only schools are frowned upon by government and I dont understand the dynamics there.
Frankly speaking the same can be said for all other languages. I wish everyone would just use english as it is a global language.
Tell me honestly though that affirmative action has not harmed service delivery in almost every sphere of government and I will concede. (except for our magnificently efficient SARS that is).

I think we shouldn't even try to compare the enourmity of the task facing the current government to that which was done by the previuos. Apartheid was all about servicing 4 million people, and F**#K the rest. The democratic government is for "everyone" though you wouldn't think it if you listened to some people's comments.

Nobody dispute the monumental task at hand, but that is no excuse when say police officers sit watching the bold and the beautiful on TV in a charge office while the phones rings relentlessly and someone needs their help. The people we have put into government departments are not competitent and there is little accountability.

Nobody has ever said that.

Hmmm think Thabo himself had a good dig at 'white' people not to long ago, will have a look for it time permitting.

Actually the white's introduced and perfected race based politics in this country. If we're ever gonna undo that damage, we dare not remove race from the agenda.

Wish you okes had said that before I voted yes in '92. I was told it was going off the agenda. It seems more on the agenda and in law now than it has ever been, even pre '94, go figure.

What are you basing this on?

The departments own reports that claim that teachers don't pitch up, arrive drunk and don't do what they should.
It will be interesting and in the interests of education to actually find out what our teacher really know dont you think?
At very little extra cost to the department we can evaluate the teachers own knowledge of the subject/s that they are teaching. Cannot expect to pump out maths and science HG students if the teachers are lagging now can you.

 

[Sneeky]

Again i have to ask, where do you get the idea that maths teachers don't understand maths, or that they don't know what they're doing?

Edit: I have never been taught by a maths teacher who didn't understand maths. That's why i'm so worried by your all so informed statement. I think we should refrain from making such wild statements that are not based on any facts.

Jozi, the results speak for themselves.

I use Maths and Science only as an example and you will agree that we do not produce enough matrics with these subjects on HG.

 

[Bageloo]

maths and science teachers tend to drift away from the teaching proffession in pursuit of opportunities elsewhere. I know because my career as a maths teacher lasted only one year...today I earn more than 10 times what the average maths teacher earns...Gvt must form partnerships with private sector to get people like us to teach maths, science and computer science part-time. The skills shortage was always a problem even when I was at school. We had our maths and science teachers imported from Ghana.

 

[Skeptik]

It must be hard to teach people when Maths performance is so poor. According to the government, only 2000 black people IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY passed Maths at > D level (HG).

 

[mancombseepgood]

Yep, and they are by far better than I since I have a D SG pass.

 

[BobbyMac]

It must be hard to teach people when Maths performance is so poor. According to the government, only 2000 black people IN THE WHOLE COUNTRY passed Maths at > D level (HG).

Yep, and they are by far better than I since I have a D SG pass.

If that is true then it is just simply shocking. Mathematics is the basis for very many things, including logic. This definitely explains why BSc (with Computer Science) degreed Tshwane and KZN university grads I've had the displeasure of working with don't even know how to follow the logic in a for loop.

 

[Syndyre]

BSc (with Computer Science) degreed Tshwane and KZN university grads I've had the displeasure of working with don't even know how to follow the logic in a for loop.

I hope you're joking!