DRM and Vista?

what?
Yes I would think so wouldn't you?

Digital Rights Management that is what DRM is. How that relates to what you just said is baffling

Well they do without customers there's no cash I would think that obvious. Was it not MS who fought to include a browser in Windows when Netscape said it was anti-competitive? Is it not MS plugging holes in their OS and building in a spyware checker and firewall. This negating the need to keep buying anti-virus? If they didn't care about the consumer now why would they do this?

If they removed all sorts of support for DRM that would mean you can't play HD content on your windows machine. So they support it so you can play such media, how is that not caring about the consumer?

So why did you ask if you are a DRM guru? I am not partaking in an pro/anti M$ debate, but the DRM is what you said "Digital Rights Management" .. It enables the content provider to control HOW the content is used BY the consumer Microsoft is the facilitator, not the content provider. Just like DSTV is the content player... they dont make their own.. they provide an encrypted medium so that fair royalties can be paid to the content provider.

Microsoft get cash from selling their DRM system to other companies.... thus forcing people to use the MS Clients... hence.. selling more Operating Systems. This is just what apple is doing with the iTunes/iPod

Its not rocket science.
 
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Apparently to you it is. If this is too hard for you to understand, gather others like you then maybe collectively you can manage a little common sense...

Microsoft get cash from selling their DRM system to other companies.... thus forcing people to use the MS Clients... hence.. selling more Operating Systems. This is just what apple is doing with the iTunes/iPod
Did you come up with this yourself or did you go to your local pre-school?
Just in case you haven't been around any movie distributed via optical media there are certain protection mechanisms employed by the provider(s) which protect their property. To say Windows DRM is like saying Windows CSS. An HDCP enabled Display is needed to output protected content, much like an HDCP enabled output device is needed. Between these two ends the content (video stream) is encrypted and decrypted by the HDCP chip.

Now, since the content (video stream) does not originate from the output device (gfx card in computer) but an actual disc. The pathway between the actual drive all the way to the GFX card needs to be protected through a defined content protection scheme. This protection mechanism is developed by the content providers and has to be implemented in whichever way by the player of the content as long as it follows the guide lines set by the content providers.

For Vista to have HD certification it needs to follow these guide lines. Its not a choice. Its either you follow these and get certification, or you don't follow and don't get certification and subsequently you are not allowed to playback HD content.

Just like for TV sets to have HD certification they need an HDCP chip, so does Microsoft, but since its software they can't use an HDCP chip but have to resort to a software equivalent. I don't see you running around crying LG, Samsung or Toshiba are making your life difficult with DRM. As an HDCP chip on a player or TV is exactly that. A DRM mechanism that stops you from recording/duplicating or storing the content in any other way other than the format in which you bought it.

BTW I didn't ask anything that wasn't a rhetorical question? I'm not a DRM guru but I do know how to read and do apply logic to anything I deal with. You should try it too. ;)
 
Are you normally this rude or did you take lessons to hone the skill? At no point was I rude to you in any way... so why the really low and sarcastic responses? Aw dont bother, its a lost cause.


Apparently to you it is. If this is too hard for you to understand, gather others like you then maybe collectively you can manage a little common sense...

Did you come up with this yourself or did you go to your local pre-school?

Just in case you haven't been around any movie distributed via optical media there are certain protection mechanisms employed by the provider(s) which protect their property. To say Windows DRM is like saying Windows CSS. An HDCP enabled Display is needed to output protected content, much like an HDCP enabled output device is needed. Between these two ends the content (video stream) is encrypted and decrypted by the HDCP chip.

Now, since the content (video stream) does not originate from the output device (gfx card in computer) but an actual disc. The pathway between the actual drive all the way to the GFX card needs to be protected through a defined content protection scheme. This protection mechanism is developed by the content providers and has to be implemented in whichever way by the player of the content as long as it follows the guide lines set by the content providers.

For Vista to have HD certification it needs to follow these guide lines. Its not a choice. Its either you follow these and get certification, or you don't follow and don't get certification and subsequently you are not allowed to playback HD content.

Just like for TV sets to have HD certification they need an HDCP chip, so does Microsoft, but since its software they can't use an HDCP chip but have to resort to a software equivalent. I don't see you running around crying LG, Samsung or Toshiba are making your life difficult with DRM. As an HDCP chip on a player or TV is exactly that. A DRM mechanism that stops you from recording/duplicating or storing the content in any other way other than the format in which you bought it.

BTW I didn't ask anything that wasn't a rhetorical question? I'm not a DRM guru but I do know how to read and do apply logic to anything I deal with. You should try it too. ;)
 
For Vista to have HD certification it needs to follow these guide lines. Its not a choice. Its either you follow these and get certification, or you don't follow and don't get certification and subsequently you are not allowed to playback HD content.

With Microsoft's market share though if they refused to do it the movie studios would have a hard time complaining and not allowing certification.
 
With Microsoft's market share though if they refused to do it the movie studios would have a hard time complaining and not allowing certification.

Exactly. The point a lot of people miss is that microsoft, if they didn't believe in or agree with drm, could make a stand and their sheer size and ubiquity would be enough to force content providers to reconsider. Better yet they could use their leverage with hardware companies to push the stand against drm even further.

They didn't though, they just capitulated. I am not saying that it wasn't the smart business decision, I am just pointing out that microsoft has microsoft's best interests in mind, not the consumers.
 
I think it is unfair to place the burden of not using DRM squarely on Microsoft's shoulders. For DRM to totally fail no other company should use it at all. This includes MS, Apple, stand alone hardware manufacturers etc.

We as the end user of things containing DRM, could also just stop purchasing the products. We could pirate the whole lot, and then see what the entertainment industry has to say. Without the end user there is no market.
 
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I think it is unfair to place the burden of not using DRM squarely on Microsoft's shoulders. For DRM to totally fail no other company should use it at all. This includes MS, Apple, stand alone hardware manufacturers etc.

The companies could and should make a stand, but this is really the consumer's fault. If they didn't but the drm'd media this would not be an issue.
 
I think it is unfair to place the burden of not using DRM squarely on Microsoft's shoulders. For DRM to totally fail no other company should use it at all. This includes MS, Apple, stand alone hardware manufacturers etc.

We as the end user of things containing DRM, could also just stop purchasing the products. We could pirate the whole lot, and then see what the entertainment industry has to say. Without the end user there is no market.

There are 2 ways to get a technology accepted as the 'Norm' .. Get big corporations to buy-in to your deal.. or install it everywhere and Tell the big corporations 'Its there, just use it' The lowest risk scenario wins.

Unfortunately Sony's Rootkit, iTunes, napster etc etc DRM are all bad tastes in the consumers mouth. DRM is not a bad thing.... it just need to be documented what it ISNT as there are dozens of interpretations. Digital Content Protection is a better name, as Digital Rights management seems draconian to me.
 
It may have been rude it seems but the greater sin is to continue to fuel an untruth and defend it with such vigor. Your misinformation does more damage than my apparent sarcasm which you will soon forget.

MS doesn't have to fight anything, how out the open source community fight it. How come all of a sudden they must champion the good fight?
Besides protected content will only really become main stream in 2009 or after add to which if consumers don't buy it then it'll eventually fizzle out into select titles and the like.

Microsoft doesn't buy the discs we do so it must be us to set the studios correct.
 
Please clarify.. at what point did I say 'Open Source was the rigth way' ?
I am not Anti-Microsoft... I am Pro-Consumer, and this is the reason I dont like DRM. Yes, I do have windows systems.. and SONY was the reason I am against DRM (ala Rootkit)

This is a forum, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If you dont like mine - then thats your perogative.

At what point was my post Dis-information? citing FUD from a Microsoft blogger doesnt add credibility to anything. Face facts... Microsoft is "Dumbing down" their entire system and removing the power from the users. If that flaots your boat, then yippee for you.. but the Microsoft ass kissers will just dismiss the articles as "Anti Microsoft... nothing Bill can do is bad!"


http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=25124

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/stream/output_protect.mspx

New output content protection mechanisms planned for Windows Vista protect against hardware attacks while playing premium content and complement the protection against software attacks provided by the Protected Environment in Windows Vista. These output protection mechanisms include:

The irony is that most content ripping software doesn't rely on video outputs and they strip the protections on the fly. After that point the content should no longer be viewed as 'premium', and the protection becomes useless. In the white paper on the Microsoft link above, the folk talk about the problems of open systems (a PC) versus a closed system (discrete DVD player) and how the end user can't upgrade or change the closed system. This seems to be the end goal - create an operating system that will create a closed system. The fact is that this 'feature' serves to hurt the consumer that Microsoft has targeted with its Media Center OS. Upgrading to the Vista flavour will render that 'Hi-Def' experience in 'Low-Def' detail, and more and more people will choose alternate operating systems. In fact, if I knew that I would be getting lower quality output on anything (there is a section on audio in there) I would be reluctant to install the OS on any machine, work or otherwise. W2k and XP are perfectly adequate, and I prefer to be able to enjoy the movies as they were meant to be seen - at full resolution. µ


It may have been rude it seems but the greater sin is to continue to fuel an untruth and defend it with such vigor. Your misinformation does more damage than my apparent sarcasm which you will soon forget.

MS doesn't have to fight anything, how out the open source community fight it. How come all of a sudden they must champion the good fight?
Besides protected content will only really become main stream in 2009 or after add to which if consumers don't buy it then it'll eventually fizzle out into select titles and the like.

Microsoft doesn't buy the discs we do so it must be us to set the studios correct.
 
I couldn't really be bothered to read the last couple posts, this thread is like a horse tranquiliser.

For anyone who still cares although it has already been pointed before a couple times, this is the story:

Some media, particularly the brand spanking new HD-DVD and Blu-Ray formats are shipped with DRM so that they will only play on certain hardware to try and prevent the content being pirated.

Windows Vista is designed to support this DRM which means that in some cases (e.g. your monitor is not HDCP compliant) the High Definition content will be dowbgraded to 800x600 or something like that.

Now absolutely no one other then the companies selling the media are happy with it but if you want to support these new standards you have to play by their rules thus Vista complies. The alternative is that these discs would not work at all. If Vista was not compliant and you used some third party software instead it would have the exact same problems.

Read it and weep. Microsoft is not the one to blame in this scenario.
 
I realised i may have been a bit hasty so i did read the last few posts, obviously im preaching to the converted here so feel free to just ignore me
 
Please clarify.. at what point did I say 'Open Source was the rigth way' ?
Are you on a crusade to prove how dense you can be, because if you are you're winning, you won some time ago... Now pay attention and quit whining. We are dealing with yours and other people's misconceptions about DRM. I am glad you're speaking out because you're not the only one who shares your views. So be glad you're doing a good thing....

1st of all if you want to prove anything, don't start by linking to the Inquirer that hardly screams reliable source.

2nd, try and seperate your own insecurities from the debate at hand. We can only had a discussion or debate when we use logic and reasoning. Present an argument/idea first then we can move forward right now you are completely lost in your own hurt, get over yourself. I am not here to offend you, you are not that important, but the truth is.

BTW quote people who at least attempt to make sense. Not everything you read on a web page is true.
The irony is that most content ripping software doesn't rely on video outputs and they strip the protections on the fly. After that point the content should no longer be viewed as 'premium', and the protection becomes useless.
I don't know whose the moron who wrote this but thanks for stating the obvious. However since you respect or at least trust this being let me illustrate to you how moronic the above statement is.

1. Content protection is from disc to output device. That is from the actual HD/BR Disc to your actual CRT/LCD/Plasma. Content rippers have nothing to do with anything.

2. From the graphics card DVI or HDMI port that very video stream is still encrypted and will get de-crytped by the HDCP chip on the display. The whole point of this mechanism is to provide a secure data path from media to display. If all of a sudden the video stream were to be unprotected just past the graphics card output, then you could just record the video just like can with an unprotected DVD or any random video. To prevent this, the content (read video) is protected from end to end!

3. To read from this protected data path (PLayer-> syustem bus->GFX card->Display) is what a software ripper would do. It would "trick" the protection mechanism into *thinking* the intercepted signal is still traveling along an encrypted and protected data path by matching the HDCP key that is expected by the system.

In the white paper on the Microsoft link above, the folk talk about the problems of open systems (a PC) versus a closed system (discrete DVD player) and how the end user can't upgrade or change the closed system. This seems to be the end goal - create an operating system that will create a closed system.
Once again this geniuses stupidity is just blinding. The system is still open in that, you can change your gfx card for better VC-1 decoding, playback etc... You can change you HD disc player for a faster one etc... you can change anything you want as long as the data path is still protected. How is this a violation of what an open box system is? It isn't because you can't do this on a standalone disc player or console which are closed systems. Where the confusion is I'd like to know.

The fact is that this 'feature' serves to hurt the consumer that Microsoft has targeted with its Media Center OS. Upgrading to the Vista flavor will render that 'Hi-Def' experience in 'Low-Def' detail, and more and more people will choose alternate operating systems.
This dude really deserves a nobel prize for his work in proving just how people's stupidity knows no bounds.

If you play a protected movie on a system that does not offer content protection in the form of HDCP, then your output is donwgraded to normal DVD. If however you have media that isn't protected (of which there are many) then you can get the full 720p/1080i over an analogue or unprotected digital interface.

This will happen on a regular TV+Player set just like it will on a PC. XP doesn't inherently offer a secured data path, so you couldn't play protected content on it anyway with media player. Vista does allow for a protected data path so you can play the protected content using media player. You could use something like PowerDVD HD to playback your protected movies on either operating system at full res, only under these two conditions.

a) You have an HDCP capable gfx card with DVI or HDMI output and you rdisplay also has an HDCP chip and accepts HDMI or DVI connections.

b) You have media that is not protected in which case you can get full resolution using any output method that is capable of carrying the signal (component, DVI or HDMI)
========================
These are th only ways you can get full resolution.
If some of these conditions are not met you simply can't watch full res movies.

I'm still waiting to here how all of this is Microsoft's fault.
BTW Bill gates then Steve Jobs later spoke out against DRM.
 
LOL .... you are a true comedian. :p but wow! ... you sure are narrow minded..
I never blamed Microsoft, I blamed RIAA/MPAA for forcing Microsoft to add the junk. Microsoft just profiteer from it by selling their Media Encoder With DRM systems to Live streaming sites.


Are you on a crusade to prove how dense you can be, because if you are you're winning, you won some time ago... Now pay attention and quit whining. We are dealing with yours and other people's misconceptions about DRM. I am glad you're speaking out because you're not the only one who shares your views. So be glad you're doing a good thing....

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah .. ad nauseum

I'm still waiting to here how all of this is Microsoft's fault.
BTW Bill gates then Steve Jobs later spoke out against DRM.
 
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Richard its clear to everybody that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Everything you have typed in this thread has been shown to be absolute rubbish (guess I should have expected this from a humanoid of your caliber)
You are the personification of a vacuum...
 
ROTFLMAO!! more more! ... come on.. more! you are side splittingly funny. Maybe you should get permission to be on the evil internet... its quite daunting for people with low IQ's


Richard its clear to everybody that you have no idea what you're talking about.
Everything you have typed in this thread has been shown to be absolute rubbish (guess I should have expected this from a humanoid of your caliber)
You are the personification of a vacuum...
 
Microsoft is not the one to blame in this scenario.

You'd have a hard time convincing many a internet forumite of that :p

Seriously, I'd have to agree. The alternative of them refusing would just have been worse. People quoting the DRM (Uni Auckland etc) essay the whole time in a fight against Vista is ridiculous, its about DRM, which isn't a Microsoft/Vista creation, they simply complied.
 
bleh, Apple's been doing DRM for years and now people are moaning about MS doing the same and THEY are the big bad masta... :rolleyes:
pfftt
 
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