Drop in demand for IT professionals

[Space_Cowboy]

I guess I am the lucky one... relocated to Cape Town now had 6 interviews setup with big companies passed all interviews and 2nd interviews... at all 6 now I have 2 decide still where I want to go work... thats the hardest part for me...

 

[phiber]

Degree doesn't teach you how to react in pressure situations. And a lot of IT related work is often conducted under pressure. All while maintaining client satisfaction and maintaining a good working relationship.

Well if the degree puts you under pressure (of course it can simulate that sort of pressure, but they can simulate pressure) you learn quite well to deal with it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Well if the degree puts you under pressure (of course it can simulate that sort of pressure, but they can simulate pressure) you learn quite well to deal with it.

Not quite the same - I have a degree, currently busy with my second one and it's nowhere close. Sure there is some stress in whether you pass or fail - but it's not quite the same as squandering millions of rands of somebody elses money because your cluster script failed. Or having to try and concentrate with a ticked off client breathing behind your neck. Or bringing 500 users to a halt leaving them without a mechanism to work. Or meeting very nearly an impossible deadline.

In the real world your actions have financial and technical implications that affect other people. In university it only affects you.

 

[cda]

Drop in demand for IT professionals

IT jobs decline, but it remains challenging to find skilled IT professionals in some cases

Good god, where do I even start.

This article is so misleading and badly written it's not even funny. First of all, it says a drop in demand and then goes on to explain a lack of supply. Did the author study basic statistics? Did the author even complete high school?

Then it says "The challenging recruitment conditions are however not an indication of more job advertisement. Over the last twelve months the number of IT jobs declined by 67%, and indication of a far lower demand for IT professionals".

Based on what sources exactly? From the article it seems more like CareerJunction has less listings with them. Does that mean there are less jobs? Does that mean CareerJunction is going out of business? Does that mean the market demand is responding to the lack of supply? Does that mean companies are giving up bothering with recruitment agencies since they list so few candidates?

Seriously, MyBroadband "reporting" has been sub par for a while now but this article just tips the scales... Perhaps if you gave out real journalist names instead of "Staff Writer" it might lend a bit more credibility and responsibility to the authors...

Rather put this kind of trash writing under the title of "Blog" instead of "Tech News".

 

[Mouse]

Well if the degree puts you under pressure (of course it can simulate that sort of pressure, but they can simulate pressure) you learn quite well to deal with it.

I studied at DUT in Durban, their IT course has a final year project that simulates the entire software development life cycle in a team. It's the most stressful part of the course, especially compounded by the fact that they group weaker students with the good one's, and you end up having to do their work again to ensure you pass

 

[Kosmik]

I studied at DUT in Durban, their IT course has a final year project that simulates the entire software development life cycle in a team. It's the most stressful part of the course, especially compounded by the fact that they group weaker students with the good one's, and you end up having to do their work again to ensure you pass

Ah, no. Not the same at all.

 

[chubster]

Unfortunately there is a massive gap between what you are taught and real world code.

Shouldn't the guy that is requesting a candidate state a bit more than just 3 years experience? If you can read/write code, then wtf can 3 years of experience tell you? Then they must state a bit more to than just knowing C# or Java or what ever language they prefer. If there are no institutions that can satisfy the demand, then what is the point to studying when most request are for work experience. Why do they insist on writing a test then? To see if you can do the language? Ok so you can do it, but what does 3 years learn you? To eat up BS or to learn the ability to BS in order to get the job?

 

[CathJ]

I've found over the last few months that the demand isn't there - I've been for several interviews, where they are hqppy with my skill levels, but the job evaporates before a formal offer is made. So maybe it appears that the jobs are there, but when you get down to it, they aren't.

The market does seem be picking up though, the last few weeks have definitely seen a change.

 

[Mouse]

Ah, no. Not the same at all.

True, but I suppose they can't simulate the full experience, just this vague approximation. The real problem is that once they graduate, where do they go? Most end up in jhb to serve internships if they are lucky.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Shouldn't the guy that is requesting a candidate state a bit more than just 3 years experience? If you can read/write code, then wtf can 3 years of experience tell you? Then they must state a bit more to than just knowing C# or Java or what ever language they prefer. If there are no institutions that can satisfy the demand, then what is the point to studying when most request are for work experience. Why do they insist on writing a test then? To see if you can do the language? Ok so you can do it, but what does 3 years learn you? To eat up BS or to learn the ability to BS in order to get the job?

I'll admit that it can often be a bit daft when they state x years experience as it doesn't take into account the learning curve of different people. A candidate with 1 year experience might very well perform better than somebody with 3 years experience.

In addition to competency tests, more relevant questions should be things like:
What were the main projects you've worked on?
What were your biggest challenges? How did you overcome these?
How do you work with other people in a team?
How do you deal with difficult clients?

Then provide a real world problem dealing with both the technical aspects and people, and ask the candidate on how they would approach it.

While I'd like to see companies create graduate posts where these folk can learn on the job without having to feel overwhelmed, you guys need to remember that once you hire someone, it's damn near impossible to get rid of them by law. Sure some may be competent enough to cope and will then move onto bigger things, but what do you do with the ones who are dead weight and can't deliver? They'll effectively be paid to come to work and struggle - which isn't pleasant for either party, and I'm not sure that companies are ready to take that risk just yet.

 

[Mouse]

While I'd like to see companies create graduate posts where these folk can learn on the job without having to feel overwhelmed, you guys need to remember that once you hire someone, it's damn near impossible to get rid of them by law. Sure some may be competent enough to cope and will then move onto bigger things, but what do you do with the ones who are dead weight and can't deliver? They'll effectively be paid to come to work and struggle - which isn't pleasant for either party, and I'm not sure that companies are ready to take that risk just yet.

This is how I got into my current job, they offered a 6 month contract to test out the graduates they hired, after 3 months we were all given permanent jobs

 

[semiautomatix]

Wanted: 15 years corporate experience, MSc Comp Sci. MBA, MCSE, A+, N+, CCIE, OCDBA. Will pay R5k per month.

I couldn't get a job back in SA so I started my own business which I sold just before I left for Switzerland where one of the big banks offered me hobos of money.

In my opinion the skills are there in SA, just the companies are not willing to pay.

I also got tired of being interviewed by people who had no clue what they were talking about. I even walked out of two interviews because the "CIO" was clueless.

Hear, hear! I want more muneyz!

Actually I started my own company to do that. The money is out there and its about time we shared in it...

 

[cda]

Dear students,

If you can read/write code, then wtf can 3 years of experience tell you?

A great many situational things. Programming is about more than reading and writing code, it's about designing solutions. The more solutions you've seen through to the end, the more experience you have and the more you know. Profesionalisim also comes with experience, working within policy frameworks and knowing how to deal with expectations. There is also knowing the pitfalls of all the garbage theory you get brain washed with. Lack of experience is what makes people jump to the last thing they were taught, like Java and XML. There are thousands of programming paradigms and usually 1 or 2 that fit a problem.

Also no matter how big your university project is, it pales in comparison to the size of the contexts you have to keep in mind when working on real software projects.

What you gain from experience that cannot be taught is explained here http://www.paulgraham.com/head.html

No course can expose you to that, there just isn't enough time. Try developing a project that takes 2 to 3 years to complete and you get a feel for the kind of real-world problems. Now consider the fact that entering a new job you likely are expected to come to some relative contextual understanding of a project that has taken 2 to 3 years to complete in a matter of weeks.

What our Universities and Techs teach, unfortunately, is barely adequate to produce a code monkey for some software factory that churns out web templates. If you don't want to be that guy, you need experience.

I studied at DUT in Durban, their IT course has a final year project that simulates the entire software development life cycle in a team.

It doesn't simulate real world fun like feature creep, budget issues, changing deadlines, staff turnover, crappy management, angry clients, bad requirements elicitation etc.

Yes there are stupid job adverts and HR people who don't understand the things they are advertising and interviewing for. Guess what, it's not their job to understand it. If they want to destroy their candidate base by requiring stupid things like "CORBA experience" then so be it. Who cares if the person has CORBA experience when it will only take them a single day to gain it, but it comes with the territory (something else you learn with experience) and you have to propose around it and demonstrate your ability to learn _beyond_ the crap which is spoon fed by a teacher.

 

[cda]

I write the test as they require, pass it, then when it comes to how long have you been doing it? "no I never did any commercial experience."

Work on an open source project.

 

[chop]

Dear students,



A great many situational things. Programming is about more than reading and writing code, it's about designing solutions. The more solutions you've seen through to the end, the more
... snip

+1
Well said.

Also keep in mind that junior people without experience actually cost the company money as they have to be trained by more experienced developers (experienced developer = higher hourly rate).

What also happens is that junior people without experience is appointed at a lower rate and then they leave after 6 months for higher salaries (after all the training from an experienced developer).

 

[swsup97]

Good god, where do I even start.

This article is so misleading and badly written it's not even funny. First of all, it says a drop in demand and then goes on to explain a lack of supply. Did the author study basic statistics? Did the author even complete high school?

Then it says "The challenging recruitment conditions are however not an indication of more job advertisement. Over the last twelve months the number of IT jobs declined by 67%, and indication of a far lower demand for IT professionals".

Based on what sources exactly? From the article it seems more like CareerJunction has less listings with them. Does that mean there are less jobs? Does that mean CareerJunction is going out of business? Does that mean the market demand is responding to the lack of supply? Does that mean companies are giving up bothering with recruitment agencies since they list so few candidates?

Seriously, MyBroadband "reporting" has been sub par for a while now but this article just tips the scales... Perhaps if you gave out real journalist names instead of "Staff Writer" it might lend a bit more credibility and responsibility to the authors...

Rather put this kind of trash writing under the title of "Blog" instead of "Tech News".

+ 1000000

Where do they source these "staff writers" from ...shocking

 

[rogerwe]

Can you maybe given an example of the type of questions you ask the pro? I am quite new in the IT work field (just finished my honours last year) so I am quite keen to hear what sort of things companies ask people who think they are senior.

Junior Question: what is a static method?
Senior Question: What is dependency injection?

I write the test as they require, pass it, then when it comes to how long have you been doing it? "no I never did any commercial experience." Then they stop the interview immediately and say it will be too high learning curve. I mean wtf? The show stopper is definitely when you say you don't have commercial experience, they just switch off. And I didn't even ask for 40K I just wanted a job. But it also seems to me that the companies are using the recession to get a guy with 10 years experience with a junior salary.

We pay your market related worth. We've hired more people straight out of varsity with no experience than senior developers. Although we hired a senior developer this week that was very honest about the skills lacked.

I hear you though chubster, before my current post I went to a few interviews that just didn't add up. HR people interviewed me for one post and they thought I didn't have the technical skills. Then another interview, the techie that interviewed me said I didn't have team skills.

 

[Mouse]

It doesn't simulate real world fun like feature creep, budget issues, changing deadlines, staff turnover, crappy management, angry clients, bad requirements elicitation etc.

feature creep --had to deal with this
budget issues --and this
changing deadlines --definitely this
staff turnover -didn't deal with this
crappy management --does sh*tty lecturer count? (insisting things be done a certain way, no open source, making us change the design a few times, etc)
angry clients --didn't have to deal with this
bad requirements elicitation --had to deal with this too

 

[saffakanera]

er, just learn php..

 

[kingmonty]

I studied at DUT in Durban, their IT course has a final year project that simulates the entire software development life cycle in a team. It's the most stressful part of the course, especially compounded by the fact that they group weaker students with the good one's, and you end up having to do their work again to ensure you pass

When you've worked in a real company where your software is running in human life support systems, or in air traffic control systems, we'll talk again. Till then, that so-called "stressful" part of the course means jack ****.