E-toll disaster even bigger than initially thought

I'm trying to understand this deal...
Did Kaputsh pay a huge amount of facilitator fees to a select few to get the collect contract?
Can these comrades now not pay back the fees?
 
dunkyd said:
I'm trying to understand this deal...
Did Kaputsh pay a huge amount of facilitator fees to a select few to get the collect contract?
Can these comrades now not pay back the fees?
Click to expand...

Yes, most likely.

No, they won't. Too late, anyway,billions have been wasted.
 
Oh noes! The e-troll is failing. My heart is pumping the purest custard.
 
I read somewhere about odious debt. Think an Outa press release, but per definition..

"In international law, odious debt, also known as illegitimate debt, is a legal theory that holds that the national debt incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of the nation, should not be enforceable."

Thing is don't know how to fight it, but do we as taxpayers really have to stand surety for their bad decisions?
 
HavocXphere said:
I've met some of the people (peripherally) involved on the e-toll consortium side...while much disliked by the public they're definitely sharp okes & they'll definitely do everything 100% by the book as far as the contracts go. They'd be stupid not to.

The only options as I see them are 1) limp along at current pace 2) settle for an outrageous penalty 3) dishonour the contract

3 is a non-option...2 as I said is likely prohibitive from a numbers perspective so they're going with 1 but from lack of alternatives & indecision.

There is only really one solution...gov needs to stop signing bad contracts. Because once you sign its game over.
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Here's my question,

Can't they just do 2 with a MASSIVE fuel levy?
Kapsch not getting paid, eventually they'll realise they have no choice but to. Write this debt off.

If not we screwed royally and for many generations.
 
HavocXphere said:
I've met some of the people (peripherally) involved on the e-toll consortium side...while much disliked by the public they're definitely sharp okes & they'll definitely do everything 100% by the book as far as the contracts go. They'd be stupid not to.

The only options as I see them are 1) limp along at current pace 2) settle for an outrageous penalty 3) dishonour the contract

3 is a non-option...2 as I said is likely prohibitive from a numbers perspective so they're going with 1 but from lack of alternatives & indecision.

There is only really one solution...gov needs to stop signing bad contracts. Because once you sign its game over.
Click to expand...

If a few top dogs are nailed for setting up the contracts and forming the Kaapsch subsidiary that the management and funding is funneled through that should form enough basis to void the subsequent contracts. Sure there will be some settlements, but they should not be able to enforce 20 year contracts etc, rather just have to pay for the physical items and development that was done for the project.

Its not about getting things for free, but about using a payment system that funnels most of the income to Kaapsch instead of to the actual highway infrastructure. We can then use something like the fuel levy to pay off the actual roads without the massive profit surcharge of using the Kaapsch etoll system. Bye bye massive etoll overheads with a relatively small payoff to cover the work done by Kaapsch up to this point.
 
clof said:
Can the gantries and equipment be sold to another country / back to the supplier?
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Maybe, but only for what they're really worth. The billions in kickbacks can't be recovered.
 
E-tolls were less about money for roads than a second income for a few ANC fat cats.
 
Bern said:
If a few top dogs are nailed for setting up the contracts and forming the Kaapsch subsidiary
Click to expand...
Might as well wish for a unicorn. None of that is even remotely close enough to throw out a legally binding contract.

Bern said:
but they should not be able to enforce 20 year contracts etc
Click to expand...
Why not? They did nothing wrong. Excessive cost? Government agreed. Offshore ownership? Government agreed. As far as I can tell all the screw-ups were on gov's side.

So short of finding something they (consortium) did massively wrong there is no basis to cancel anything (or even invoke termination clauses depending on how its written). Sucks balls for SA but thats the way contracts work.
 
HavocXphere said:
Might as well wish for a unicorn. None of that is even remotely close enough to throw out a legally binding contract.


Why not? They did nothing wrong. Excessive cost? Government agreed. Offshore ownership? Government agreed. As far as I can tell all the screw-ups were on gov's side.

So short of finding something they (consortium) did massively wrong there is no basis to cancel anything (or even invoke termination clauses depending on how its written). Sucks balls for SA but thats the way contracts work.
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If gov see they need to sacrifice a few people to get out of it to not lose an election the will is likely to be there, no unicorns!

If they are willing to sacrifice key people they should easily be able to then show the consortium acted incorrectly, look at some of the companies getting nailed overseas for dodgy things they have done in the local market already.

The key is how much pressure is put on gov to make etolls go away, if there is enough they will drop some comrades to make the whole thing disappear and then try to spin it as the party winning against the international capitalists stealing money from SA.
 
Bern said:
they will drop some comrades to make the whole thing disappear
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Which comrades would that be? The etoll consortium is ~85% foreign owned & the other 15% are investment vehicles that likely have little influence. No comrades available for throwing-under-the-bus purposes there.

Bern said:
they should easily be able to then show the consortium acted incorrectly
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"acted incorrectly"? Like what? They've got a valid contract and are delivering on it. Short of someone showing up with proof of corruption you've got nothing. And that will require a unicorn.
 
Nazir and Dipstick will likely be the fall guys, but other than that, not much else.
 
Well, given that the equipment used to classify vehicles going under the gantries is illegal, I'd say that the disaster is escalating.
 
HavocXphere said:
"acted incorrectly"? Like what? They've got a valid contract and are delivering on it. Short of someone showing up with proof of corruption you've got nothing. And that will require a unicorn.
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Kickbacks, I would say. Inducements to get the contract passed - this is possible but unlikely due to the point below.

It would mean the ANC has to take "meaningful" action in the corruption space and this hasn't been forthcoming to now. If they want the contract thrown out due to mendacity, they would have to treat the locals quite harshly in comparison to the slap on the wrist \ paid vacations they tend to throw around.
 
Neoprod said:
Kickbacks, I would say. Inducements to get the contract passed - this is possible but unlikely due to the point below.

It would mean the ANC has to take "meaningful" action in the corruption space and this hasn't been forthcoming to now. If they want the contract thrown out due to mendacity, they would have to treat the locals quite harshly in comparison to the slap on the wrist \ paid vacations they tend to throw around.
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That would work - if you can get proof and assuming gov is willing to admit their massive project was corrupt. (Which btw I'm not entirely convinced is a given...pretty sure they can mess things up on this scale with garden variety incompetence).
 
HavocXphere said:
That would work - if you can get proof and assuming gov is willing to admit their massive project was corrupt. (Which btw I'm not entirely convinced is a given...pretty sure they can mess things up on this scale with garden variety incompetence).
Click to expand...

No doubt...sadly. The lack of fiscal discipline in this government continuously amazes...those NW okes now claim there aren't any ghost workers, just consultants or some such. So spending 19bn on public servant salaries out of a provincial budget of 26bn was all part of the plan, it seems.

There is no epithet strong enough sometimes.
 
Neoprod said:
No doubt...sadly. The lack of fiscal discipline in this government continuously amazes...those NW okes now claim there aren't any ghost workers, just consultants or some such. So spending 19bn on public servant salaries out of a provincial budget of 26bn was all part of the plan, it seems.

There is no epithet strong enough sometimes.
Click to expand...

Fiscal discipline=grab as much as you can for yourself?
:)
 
HavocXphere said:
Which comrades would that be? The etoll consortium is ~85% foreign owned & the other 15% are investment vehicles that likely have little influence. No comrades available for throwing-under-the-bus purposes there.


"acted incorrectly"? Like what? They've got a valid contract and are delivering on it. Short of someone showing up with proof of corruption you've got nothing. And that will require a unicorn.
Click to expand...

You are missing the point completely, the structure of the foreign companies, e.g. the Swedish subsidiary is where some of the profits can funnel back in terms of kickbacks to avoid local SA law, but if there was some actual interest in it it could be followed up on as companies in the arms deal started getting in trouble in the EU zone despite a blind eye being turned here.

In terms of political will, look at Marikana, after enough sustained pressure top dogs are getting sacked. If the ANC loses say JHB and Ekurhuleni you don't think some sums on dropping a comrade for the benefit of the rest might not change? Ask John Block how he feels right now.

I am not saying this will happen, just that if the citizenry keep up the pressure it is possible and there are some conditions that could force the issue such as losing the political power in total.

To be sure there will be some behind the scenes links and kickbacks where payments in some roundabout way are happening in say Kapsch Sweden, but without some inside knowledge it is hard to track that. Any sort of proof of contracts being signed on the basis of something like this can provide enough evidence to show the entire basis is invalid, it just needs the players to be desperate enough to make this leap. Losing the Metros in Gauteng may be enough for this.
 
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