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E-tolling another arms deal?
- Thread starter rpm
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The whole thing smacks of corruption. I hope I am proved wrong, but the way I see it, this thing is being shoved so hard at the province, that there has to be more than meets the eye.
Besides, if the money which had been collected for roads through the fuel levy had been apportioned to roads all along, I doubt we would facing the infrastructure problems now coming to the fore.
Besides, if the money which had been collected for roads through the fuel levy had been apportioned to roads all along, I doubt we would facing the infrastructure problems now coming to the fore.
bekdik
Honorary Master
Which one?
Bern
Expert Member
I really can't get over the costs - for 185km of road why on earth does the control and measurement system cost so much??? To give you an idea of how ridiculous this is for R15Billion over three years you could hire 13 888 people at R30 000 per month (total cost to company) for the same 3 years. If you talk about minimum wage for a general worker in high rate areas it is R1959 per month, you could hire 212 693 people for the three years for a total cost of R15 Billion (R5 Billion per year). Imagine having an additional 212 000 odd people gainfully employed for the next 3 years, that is half the government target of 500 000 jobs, except these would be permanent positions!!
In short if they used the fuel levy they could use the extra money to reduce unemployment by a massive percentage, 212 000 odd families would have food on their tables, so call it towards a million people directly affected. Now talk about gearing as this will promote businesses who these people buy from and so forth.
The toll system is everything that wrong with the government's way of thinking right now. You have a perfectly good mechanism to get the funds in, but rather try some fancy system someone has shmoozed you in to and allow for some tenderpreneurship on the side. **** the people.
I don't know the details about access to our bank accounts but how is it that the banks are quiet about a third party accessing our accounts when they made so much noise about 22seven?
In the article, about independent external auditing... it still does not address the awarding of contracts, how much money went towards 'empowering' and how much towards the road.
Its also financially absurd that you spend at least 33% of your revenue to recover that revenue. And year the R 15 billion for the gantries to recover a supposed R 30 billion (for the GFIP right?) is weird. Why don't you just write off 15 of it then!
Personally, I think there is a huge plus and minus to tolls. People can claim that I don't use those roads, but surely the supermarket that you buy food from uses those. So that indicates some of the benefit of going the road levy route. But on the other hand having tolls cuts the excuses (also only to a certain extent) for prices going up since now with the road levy I don't think every affected business will directly pass on the cost to customers. Some will take advantage and take more than it costs them.
But hey, we elect some really shoody leaders and here's what we get. Its very nice that everyone in the public is well aware of this issue and the direct implications on their lives and they're shouting about it. BUT I am really afraid that this toll thing might become a reality anyway
In the article, about independent external auditing... it still does not address the awarding of contracts, how much money went towards 'empowering' and how much towards the road.
Its also financially absurd that you spend at least 33% of your revenue to recover that revenue. And year the R 15 billion for the gantries to recover a supposed R 30 billion (for the GFIP right?) is weird. Why don't you just write off 15 of it then!
Personally, I think there is a huge plus and minus to tolls. People can claim that I don't use those roads, but surely the supermarket that you buy food from uses those. So that indicates some of the benefit of going the road levy route. But on the other hand having tolls cuts the excuses (also only to a certain extent) for prices going up since now with the road levy I don't think every affected business will directly pass on the cost to customers. Some will take advantage and take more than it costs them.
But hey, we elect some really shoody leaders and here's what we get. Its very nice that everyone in the public is well aware of this issue and the direct implications on their lives and they're shouting about it. BUT I am really afraid that this toll thing might become a reality anyway
Bern
Expert Member
Mainly because they will be using the normal banking procedures (debit order system) not logging in to your internet banking using your personal login credentials. They will have a merchant account and you have to first sign a bank form to allow the debits to go off your account.
I can tell you if nothing else bothered me on the tolling story giving them carte blanche to debit my bank account would. Imagine, they can just submit a "fine" and take it straight off your account, no questions asked. Then you have to go through a huge bureaucratic and possibly a legal (expensive) challenge to get the charge reversed!! Not ideal. Do you really trust SANRAL enough to not do that if they say they won't now??
MrGray
Honorary Master
+1
I am convinced that the whole e-tolling system could have been done for < 10% of the cost.
ice_blade_za
Active Member
Public transport...?
Let it be known that people use the Gautrain and .... oh wait! That's the only one they built. <sigh> Yes I agree with you but only in the perfect world. No trains or buses along my route (West rand to north Johannesburg) and no one else traveling my route that I can car pool with.
So now I have no choice. The issue is that almost all systems run on petrol and get screwed with each price hike. Now the highway has been taken over by these systems.
We as a people have systematically lost control of the country to a few politicians who keep getting fatter (figuratively and literally) while the rest of us keep trying to keep our wallets from being sucked into this black hole called a government. So I worked hard (for a salary that never gets increased at the rate of inflation) but no matter, I must apologize for having a job, for each item I own and any thing I buy.
Government is no longer of the people for the people, it's this huge machine that absorbs and makes excuses for never living up to promises it makes.
I heard most of the toll systems in the country went bankrupt and the local government branches took them over.... any one tell me how true this is? :wtf:
Let it be known that people use the Gautrain and .... oh wait! That's the only one they built. <sigh> Yes I agree with you but only in the perfect world. No trains or buses along my route (West rand to north Johannesburg) and no one else traveling my route that I can car pool with.
So now I have no choice. The issue is that almost all systems run on petrol and get screwed with each price hike. Now the highway has been taken over by these systems.
We as a people have systematically lost control of the country to a few politicians who keep getting fatter (figuratively and literally) while the rest of us keep trying to keep our wallets from being sucked into this black hole called a government. So I worked hard (for a salary that never gets increased at the rate of inflation) but no matter, I must apologize for having a job, for each item I own and any thing I buy.
Government is no longer of the people for the people, it's this huge machine that absorbs and makes excuses for never living up to promises it makes.
I heard most of the toll systems in the country went bankrupt and the local government branches took them over.... any one tell me how true this is? :wtf:
MrGray
Honorary Master
Yes, and FYI the Gautrain is currently under investigation by the competition commission (http://www.fin24.com/Companies/TravelAndLeisure/Gautrain-under-investigation-20111204) for colluding with ACSA to force people to either pay for parking or pay the exorbitant R100+ train fare. Did you know that they've actively deliberately and maliciously designed the system to prevent anyone getting onto the Gautrain at Rhodesfield station (800m away from the airport where there is ample cheap parking). On the airport bound train from Rhodesfield, the doors to the airport carriages don't open and you're forced to go back via Sandton at the full fare!!! Yet another example of disgusting profiteering in this whole Gautrain/GFIP/E-tolling co-ordinated criminal racket. It really is starting to look like the unholy trinity of the Gautrain, the GFIP and the E-Tolling was carefully designed and coordinated primarily to maximise money extraction, while the original goal of having a sane and efficient transport infrastructure contributing to the province's prosperity has taken a very distant and remote second place.
reactor_sa
Executive Member
The whole thing of government not ring fencing fuel levies for road maintenance, is that thing of the anc spending money that they don't have that isn't theirs and we fork out for! Anc math is 1+ 1=5 000 000 for a party!
Let alone trust, what about system bugs and false positives? I mean the same way the speed fines sometimes have 2 cars in the picture and the wrong person gets the fine. I just feel violated if my account is automatically debited for fines. Those I want to pay in full consciousness and awareness after knowing it was me.
I just thought the only measure was R 125 for any trip starting or ending at the airport no matter where you get on?
I think you might be on to something here. Once the spend is audited correctly, the cobwebs will definitely unfold...
system32
Executive Member
R285m per gantry
Q. How may KM were improved?
A. 185km
Q. How many toll gantries were built?
A. 49, average spacing is 185km/49=3.77km
Q. How many lanes were added?
A. 1 lane
Q. Was this a new road?
A. No
Q. The cost of the road improvements?
A. R20b
Q. The cost of the e-toll infrastructure?
A. R14b
Q. Cost per gantry?
A. R14b/49=R285m
Q. What % of revenue goes to collection
A. 35%, compare that with SARS which is <1%
A. A fuel levy costs virtually zero to collect.
Q. To pay for the roads, what would a Gauteng Only fuel levy be?
A. 10-15c per litre for 8-10years (not sure if this covers the R14b as well)
Q. Budgeted income per day?
A. R300m
Q. What % of fines get paid?
A. 20% - probably about 20% will pay e-toll as well.
A. Fuel levy is 100% collection
Q. What % of Electronic Toll Collection is overseas owned?
A. 85% owned by Kapsch.
Q. Will you pay VAT on the e-toll (tax on tax)
A. Yes
Q. Where can I get more info?
A. http://www.tollfreegp.co.za
A. http://www.ezshuttle.co.za/Toll-road-fat-cats.php
At R285m per gantry sure seems like there was a bit of "fat" added on.
Q. How may KM were improved?
A. 185km
Q. How many toll gantries were built?
A. 49, average spacing is 185km/49=3.77km
Q. How many lanes were added?
A. 1 lane
Q. Was this a new road?
A. No
Q. The cost of the road improvements?
A. R20b
Q. The cost of the e-toll infrastructure?
A. R14b
Q. Cost per gantry?
A. R14b/49=R285m
Q. What % of revenue goes to collection
A. 35%, compare that with SARS which is <1%
A. A fuel levy costs virtually zero to collect.
Q. To pay for the roads, what would a Gauteng Only fuel levy be?
A. 10-15c per litre for 8-10years (not sure if this covers the R14b as well)
Q. Budgeted income per day?
A. R300m
Q. What % of fines get paid?
A. 20% - probably about 20% will pay e-toll as well.
A. Fuel levy is 100% collection
Q. What % of Electronic Toll Collection is overseas owned?
A. 85% owned by Kapsch.
Q. Will you pay VAT on the e-toll (tax on tax)
A. Yes
Q. Where can I get more info?
A. http://www.tollfreegp.co.za
A. http://www.ezshuttle.co.za/Toll-road-fat-cats.php
At R285m per gantry sure seems like there was a bit of "fat" added on.
CeeBee
Expert Member
the total cost is strange.... wonder who approved the 'budget'? he needs the first kick out on his ass.
i heard somewhere it cost about a million bucks to build 1Km of new road. (this is most likely nowhere near the actual cost in todays terms, especially on a multi lane highway)... but still, considering how many Km of highway is involved, if its only 185 odd kms, and considering that most of that were not new, or even needed upgrading, just maintenance, then it would seem way cheaper to build all new roads, than just building the toll gantrys?
Still, i think it was mentioned that the etolling is to finance the project over 8 years or so.... we all know that once the tolling starts, its not going to go away, not ever, so why not let the financing of these overpriced gantrys be done over 15 or 20 or more years, reduce the per-km toll fee.
the whole issue seems to be a total F-up... the ANC did not think this thing through properly... as usual :-(
i heard somewhere it cost about a million bucks to build 1Km of new road. (this is most likely nowhere near the actual cost in todays terms, especially on a multi lane highway)... but still, considering how many Km of highway is involved, if its only 185 odd kms, and considering that most of that were not new, or even needed upgrading, just maintenance, then it would seem way cheaper to build all new roads, than just building the toll gantrys?
Still, i think it was mentioned that the etolling is to finance the project over 8 years or so.... we all know that once the tolling starts, its not going to go away, not ever, so why not let the financing of these overpriced gantrys be done over 15 or 20 or more years, reduce the per-km toll fee.
the whole issue seems to be a total F-up... the ANC did not think this thing through properly... as usual :-(
MrGray
Honorary Master
I think Sandton to ORTIA is R105. They would not be able to justify that for an 800m trip either way, and forcing airport passengers from Rhodesfield to go all the way back to Sandton is just plain mean.
I think the million would be a per lane cost. Because it works to R 1000 per meter which seems a bit low unless you're just upgrading or something. But don't mind me, no experience I am the field.
Well I guess the steam rolling has become evident now as to how the toll proposals just went past all the stakeholders. Surely before the building was started a plan was made to recover the money and there is the issue. It should have been debated then but the roads were critical for World Cup so!