Fracking in the Karoo - why it's bad

joelus said:
It won't! The SKA will be beautiful and quiet and will not pollute the available water...
That you can even compare the two in terms of damage to the environment is ridiculous :rolleyes:
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They both damage the surface landscape. Notice how I specifically mentioned the "surface landscape", not the water.
The and fracking brigade has been going on for months about how fracking would scar the landscape with all the wells needed
 
Without an unpolluted earth there will be no life.

The anti-fracking brigade are worried about what will happen below the surface a lot more than the eyesores above it.
 
JStrike said:
They both damage the surface landscape. Notice how I specifically mentioned the "surface landscape", not the water.
The and fracking brigade has been going on for months about how fracking would scar the landscape with all the wells needed
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Where? LOL :D Did you just make that up? I call strwman on that one. I've seen concerns about health and about water, nothing about how it would scar the landscape. And can you please provide evidence that SKA will damage the surface landscape?
You seem to have a lot of opinions with very little facts. You accuse the Treasure the Karoo Action Group of being created and funded by special interest groups / corporations, with no evidence or even an attempt to explain what might motivate such a corporation. You claim a massive economic boost with no evidence whatsoever. You claim we can generate billions of revenue from fracking, again, with no evidence whatsoever. You accuse others of making assumptions, and then basing your argument on those assumptions when that is exactly what you are doing!

If you think fracking the karoo is such a godsend, answer these questions for me:
Where would the water be sourced from for the fracking operations in the Karoo?
Where would the toxic, radioactive, hazardous waste and waste water be disposed of?
How would the wells be monitored after well completion and whose responsibility would that become?
What guarantees could be provided to the public regarding safety of groundwater, air quality, the environment and public health?
How many local jobs would be created?
How many current and future sustainable local jobs would be lost or replaced by fracking in the tourism, energy and agriculture sectors?

We need facts from you, not just your misguided opinion...
 
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And then when they have finished destroying the Karoo they are close enough to move all their equipment to Antarctica - lots of lovely gas and offshore oil there to make money from - for the benefit of us all of course.
 
JStrike said:
No, just people who value it more than human life...
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We're NOT going to loose any human life if we don't frack... actually we'll even help preserve it by not fracking. There are a bunch of ways to bring in income, and a bunch of ways to generate energy. If government pulled its head out of it's arse, and didn't squander the money it had, we'd be much better off. The billions it has wasted over the last few years could have been put to very good use in the energy sector.

Germany for example is going full steam ahead on renewable sources and at this rate they won't have to bother much about pollution from energy production in the next 40 years (no, that's not a long time). "The share of electricity produced from renewable energy in Germany has increased from 6.3 percent of the national total in 2000 to over 20 percent in the first half of 2011." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany

So in 12 years they've managed to convert 15% of their energy requirements to renewable energy sources. Who the hell cares if we don't export the gas sitting in the shale. If it means stuffing up the Karoo (which it does), leave it alone. That's an opportunity cost that is just not worth it. No amount of money can repair the Karoo once it's toast.
 
joelus said:
Where? LOL :D Did you just make that up? I call strwman on that one. I've seen concerns about health and about water, nothing about how it would scar the landscape. And can you please provide evidence that SKA will damage the surface landscape?
You seem to have a lot of opinions with very little facts. You accuse the Treasure the Karoo Action Group of being created and funded by special interest groups / corporations, with no evidence or even an attempt to explain what might motivate such a corporation. You claim a massive economic boost with no evidence whatsoever. You claim we can generate billions of revenue from fracking, again, with no evidence whatsoever. You accuse others of making assumptions, and then basing your argument on those assumptions when that is exactly what you are doing!

If you think fracking the karoo is such a godsend, answer these questions for me:
Where would the water be sourced from for the fracking operations in the Karoo?
Where would the toxic, radioactive, hazardous waste and waste water be disposed of?
How would the wells be monitored after well completion and whose responsibility would that become?
What guarantees could be provided to the public regarding safety of groundwater, air quality, the environment and public health?
How many local jobs would be created?
How many current and future sustainable local jobs would be lost or replaced by fracking in the tourism, energy and agriculture sectors?

We need facts from you, not just your misguided opinion...
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I have linked to multiple articles where the possible economic benefit of fracking was detailed, as well as why *any* special interest group should be regarded with skeptism.

Jonathan Deal, who runs the Treasure the Karoo Action Group often brings up the scaring to the landscape and likes to use a large poster of what the Karoo will look like with the fracking wells.
So, I'm not sure where your information comes from to accuse me of using a strawman argument.

As for the last group of your questions, what I am saying is this is exactly what needs to be investigated and then weighed up against the confirmed, peer-reviewed findings of environmental impact.
Fear mongering and taking absolutist positions don't help
 
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shogun said:
We're NOT going to loose any human life if we don't frack... actually we'll even help preserve it by not fracking. There are a bunch of ways to bring in income, and a bunch of ways to generate energy. If government pulled its head out of it's arse, and didn't squander the money it had, we'd be much better off. The billions it has wasted over the last few years could have been put to very good use in the energy sector.

Germany for example is going full steam ahead on renewable sources and at this rate they won't have to bother much about pollution from energy production in the next 40 years (no, that's not a long time). "The share of electricity produced from renewable energy in Germany has increased from 6.3 percent of the national total in 2000 to over 20 percent in the first half of 2011." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany

So in 12 years they've managed to convert 15% of their energy requirements to renewable energy sources. Who the hell cares if we don't export the gas sitting in the shale. If it means stuffing up the Karoo (which it does), leave it alone. That's an opportunity cost that is just not worth it. No amount of money can repair the Karoo once it's toast.
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So you know a better way of bringing in billions of dollars of Tax revenue? You should mail the Treasury. They will be very interested in your well researched ideas
 
JStrike said:
So you know a better way of bringing in billions of dollars of Tax revenue? You should mail the Treasury. They will be very interested in your well researched ideas
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They listen to the lobby group who corrupts them the most. Not who is right. ICASA is a good example of this. They dont do whats right, they do whatever whoever pays them the most. Thats how our government is.

Im surprised you are not promoting rhino hunting. Many people make an economic living off it...
 
JStrike said:
I have linked to multiple articles where the economic benefit of fracking was detailed, as well as why *any* special interest group should be regarded with skeptism
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Not in this thread you haven't? And I suppose the information related to the supposed economic benefit of fracking you did post about is not sourced from special interest groups and corporations? I don't see much skepticism from you there?

I'll treat the Treasure the Karoo Action Group with skepticism if you could at least explain to me what the motivation would be for corporations to create and fund such a group? It's not like they will gain huge profits if fracking is prevented - so what exactly does this special interest group have to gain from funding them?
 
joelus said:
Not in this thread you haven't? And I suppose the information related to the supposed economic benefit of fracking you did post about is not sourced from special interest groups and corporations? I don't see much skepticism from you there?

I'll treat the Treasure the Karoo Action Group with skepticism if you could at least explain to me what the motivation would be for corporations to create and fund such a group? It's not like they will gain huge profits if fracking is prevented - so what exactly does this special interest group have to gain from funding them?
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SA's has 485 trillion cubic feet of Technically recoverable shale gas reserves. The 5th largest in the world, according to the Energy Information Administration, 2011.

As for who would fund the Karoo Action Group? This article I linked to earlier lists why companies would fund the KAG (I'm not saying they are, I'm saying they could be, and should be treated with as much skepticism as anyone else) http://dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2012-06-05-green-doesnt-mean-clean-the-rise-of-eco-cronyism
 
JStrike said:
So you know a better way of bringing in billions of dollars of Tax revenue? You should mail the Treasury. They will be very interested in your well researched ideas
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Do you have any idea how many billions of dollars it would cost to repair the Karoo? You'd just leave it, but that's not acceptable... so how would you restore the Karoo? The kind of damage that is created to underground water sources cannot be repaired. You'd spend more than the project will earn just in repairing something that wasn't broken to begin with.

What makes you think those "billions or dollars" - which you still haven't substantiated btw, so for now we'll leave it at a few billion rand - will be spent wisely? At best we are looking at 30% of those billions in any case (tax revenue only), as it's a multi-national company that will be working here, taking the money offshore. And by we... I mean government will have that available to increase pay checks of government employees, throw lavish celebrations, fund elections and presidential planes and generally throw it away.

If government just cleaned up its act, they would be able to do FAR more with the money they have... rather than look for more to waste.

You don't understand how much we as a country have to loose by going ahead with fracking. I'm pretty sure if it was your farm and family on the line, your tune would be different. That, or you have no comprehension at all how much a clean environment can cost.
 
The Daily Maverick has really become the mouthpiece for right wing politics and economics.
 
ghoti said:
They listen to the lobby group who corrupts them the most. Not who is right. ICASA is a good example of this. They dont do whats right, they do whatever whoever pays them the most. Thats how our government is.

Im surprised you are not promoting rhino hunting. Many people make an economic living off it...
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Just a correction, that is how all governments are. They don't reflect the will of the people, they only reflect the will of lobbyist, those with the biggest pockets and other special interest groups.
 
JStrike said:
I have linked to multiple articles where the possible economic benefit of fracking was detailed, as well as why *any* special interest group should be regarded with skeptism.

Jonathan Deal, who runs the Treasure the Karoo Action Group often brings up the scaring to the landscape and likes to use a large poster of what the Karoo will look like with the fracking wells.
So, I'm not sure where your information comes from to accuse me of using a strawman argument.
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Let me explain evidence to you:
When you say Jonathan Deal often brings up the scaring to the landscape, point to posts, letters, forums, newspapers, whatever, where he brings it up. Point to multiple sources to show he 'often' brings it up. Just telling me he does is not evidence, it's hearsay.
Where is this poster of what the karoo will look like - show it to me, don't tell me about it. Give me the evidence or I'll consider it something you made up.
 
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