Free basic electricity problems in South Africa

[Mariner]

They would probably prefer higher pensions.

The old age pension in South Africa is about half the minimum wage in SA. Let that sink in. See if you can live on a bit over R2000 a month.

But they still get the same absolute amount (KWH) which stretches further.

Not much further. And saving on LED lights is negated rapidly by any heating appliance.

Unfortunately geysers and space heaters are no longer for them.

What do you suggest they use then?

Gas heating or some other biofuel heating is on the table, except it's not as SA put all her eggs in the electricity basket.

I use a gas heater. Are you aware of the cost of a 9 kg bottle of gas and how rapidly it is depleted by a gas heater? The indigent cannot afford gas either. They cook on wood, coal, cardboard and plastic as fuel. Spaza shops have no problems getting rid of their carboard and plastic waste.

That hokkie is not geared for Western Cape winters. Sometimes the temps approach single digits. Never mind the wet.

Western Cape winters are mild compared to winters on the Northern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, Eastern Cape and Mpumalanga highveld plateaus. Those temperatures can go into double digit minus temperatures. Frost is a regular occurrence on the plateau and rare in the Western Cape.

Electricity is for lights, small appliances like microwaves, kettles, irons, fridges and washing machines.

I don't think you have been inside an indigent household. Most of those items are out of their reach.

Also you have not answered how you wish to bring in 240V power into hokkies. Do you want fires starting up?

If people have no proper houses, how can you argue for cheaper electricity? You make no sense, see how poor your whole muddled thinking here is?

You have obviously never been in an informal settlement and seen that power is supplied legally to shacks.

Supplementary electricity is something else. It's a logic fallacy to bring that in and claim the free allowance is less now.

That has never been my claim. My claim, for the umpteenth time, is that the supplementary electricity that was required in 2003 is now comparatively far more expensive due to electricity prices increasing far more than inflation and pension increases.

 

[Benedict A55h0le not]

The old age pension in South Africa is about half the minimum wage in SA. Let that sink in. See if you can live on a bit over R2000 a month.



Not much further. And saving on LED lights is negated rapidly by any heating appliance.



What do you suggest they use then?



I use a gas heater. Are you aware of the cost of a 9 kg bottle of gas and how rapidly it is depleted by a gas heater? The indigent cannot afford gas either. They cook on wood, coal, cardboard and plastic as fuel. Spaza shops have no problems getting rid of their carboard and plastic waste.



Western Cape winters are mild compared to winters on the Northern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, Eastern Cape and Mpumalanga highveld plateaus. Those temperatures can go into double digit minus temperatures. Frost is a regular occurrence on the plateau and rare in the Western Cape.



I don't think you have been inside an indigent household. Most of those items are out of their reach.



You have obviously never been in an informal settlement and seen that power is supplied legally to shacks.

That has never been my claim. My claim, for the umpteenth time, is that the supplementary electricity that was required in 2003 is now comparatively far more expensive due to electricity prices increasing far more than inflation and pension increases.

You also don`t know what an indigent is. Shacks are poor class and I doubt that any of them are paying for electricity at all. Indegent is a class above the poor class. The poor class get free electricity. Indigent houses can be worth up to R2 million. Their houses are no different to a middleclass house. They have large tvs, geysers, heaters, electric stoves, everything.

Your statement about that Cape winters are not that bad is also false. The Cape winter is by far the worst in SA. It might not have the low temps like higher areas, but the higher areas have no wind when its cold, and its dry. When a front hits the Cape, the humidity climbs to 90%, and there is storm winds that blow that cold straight through the small gaps of closed windows and under doors. The Cape winter is a bitch, people that visit from Europe say they never get as cold as when they are in the Cape during winter.

 

[Benedict A55h0le not]

Allow me to show you what an indigent house looks like. If you buy this house, even if you earn R150k per month, you only pay indigent rates:

3 Bedroom House for sale in Victoria Park - Somerset West - Property24

Three-Bedroom Home with Office Space and Versatile Living Areas This well appointed home offers flexible living options perfect for families or those working from home. Enjoy a spacious sunroom with double sliding doors ideal for hot summer days that leads into the living and dining area...

www.property24.com

 

[Mirai]

The old age pension in South Africa is about half the minimum wage in SA. Let that sink in. See if you can live on a bit over R2000 a month.

I don't know why you say "let that sink in". This is pure arrogance on your part. You're a kid I suspect who just discovered poverty.

Not much further. And saving on LED lights is negated rapidly by any heating appliance.

Irrelevant. And heating was also necessary on 2003.

We also covered that electrical heating is unsustainable, even in the first world.

What do you suggest they use then?

That is a problem society must solve. First of all the government must actually start to give a fsck about the people. Second, they must grow the economy and stop fighting the Americans and minorities. They must do all they can to bring investment, even if it means, cadres get cut off and BEE/AA is mostly scrapped. Racist laws must be repealed. Apartheid and white blame must stop.

I use a gas heater. Are you aware of the cost of a 9 kg bottle of gas and how rapidly it is depleted by a gas heater? The indigent cannot afford gas either. They cook on wood, coal, cardboard and plastic as fuel. Spaza shops have no problems getting rid of their carboard and plastic waste.

Are you aware that you have this problem because the ecosystem is not geared to gas? We already know ESKOM is sh-t. But electricity can't be used to heat.

Look you're irrational as per usual. You have a pet hobby with electricity. But the whole SA society is fscked on so many levels. Eg SA has one of the highest rates of child rape and woman rape in the world. There are many, many things wrong.

You need to address everything. I already mentioned what are a good start. Voting the ANC out as said is key.

Western Cape winters are mild compared to winters on the Northern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, Eastern Cape and Mpumalanga highveld plateaus. Those temperatures can go into double digit minus temperatures. Frost is a regular occurrence on the plateau and rare in the Western Cape.

See you agree with me. Ergo electric heating is not sustainable. Poor insulation is not sustainable.

I don't think you have been inside an indigent household. Most of those items are out of their reach.

When I was young I did not have single use nappies. We washed our nappies. The poor in SA use single use nappies. People need to adapt better.

I know what indigent is buddy. My father was a WW2 refugee as a little kid. Don't lecture me about poverty. You don't know what real poverty is.

You're a kid who's seen photos of camps. You never worked with any of these people, volunteered your time and expertise to help any of them. You don't known them closely.

You have obviously never been in an informal settlement and seen that power is supplied legally to shacks.

That has never been my claim. My claim, for the umpteenth time, is that the supplementary electricity that was required in 2003 is now comparatively far more expensive due to electricity prices increasing far more than inflation and pension increases.

That power is not safely provided as per standards. Many connections are illegal and fires start in these hokkies all the time. You want to electrify more of them.

Where is the earth leakage there? Where is the ground connected? Where is the "fuse box"?


You're clueless, my friend. You are an ANC voter, I suspect?

 

[rustypup]

"Free" == Brain-dead farkwit delusion...

There is no "free"... There is just rate-payers being raped and cANCer voter "free"..

"Fark those future humans!! I got mine!" - The cANCer......

 

[Mirai]

Allow me to show you what an indigent house looks like. If you buy this house, even if you earn R150k per month, you only pay indigent rates:

3 Bedroom House for sale in Victoria Park - Somerset West - Property24

Three-Bedroom Home with Office Space and Versatile Living Areas This well appointed home offers flexible living options perfect for families or those working from home. Enjoy a spacious sunroom with double sliding doors ideal for hot summer days that leads into the living and dining area...

www.property24.com

If you can't afford to bathe daily, you must bathe weekly.

Why is that so hard for you to understand?

You want first world convenience and amenities in a third world, poorly run, crime ridden country.

 

[rustypup]

The old age pension in South Africa is about half the minimum wage in SA.

Did your parents fail you?!

Who is responsible here? The universe or your parents?

I could hazard a guess but your feelings are too delicate... or deluded

 

[Mirai]

Did your parents fail you?!

Who is responsible here? The universe or your parents?

I could hazard a guess but your feelings are too delicate... or deluded

He's an ANC voter I suspect.

 

[Swa]

Ok let's see here wise guy...

Eskom is mandated to provide the FBE and transport electricity to every little hole in the ground out in the boonies, where most will be taking that FBE as well, by the government. And utltimately it's "funded" (note the quotes) through the LGES with local municipalities. Which have to buy the electricity from Eskom, give it to beneficiaries, and in return they get more of the profit from their local electricity sales. Profit generated from paying customers.

right?

It costs money to generate electricity. And to expand infrastructure. And for Eskom especially since it has also been ****ed by government mandate to provide so much employment over the years. Beyond what they would otherwise need. And then the years of state capture and the cadre shenanigans around coal, fuel and gas supply.

right?

Now... While so much electricity is being given away for free - Those who do pay, including businesses, have to pay more for electricity. So that Eskom doesn't run at a loss.

right?

What do you think this does to businesses? They pay more for electricity. Of course. And, very often businesses use a hell of a lot of electricity. Lighting, climate control, constant refrigeration or face expired food losses, etc. This is an increased operating expense that lowers their profitability margins.

right?

So, what's the effect for the consumer (both those paying for electricity and those whho not)"
A: Those who do pay - Have bigger electricity bills.
B: Everybody, when they walk into any shop and buy anything, have to pay more for what they buy, because the business needs to make a profit. They need to make a living. So they increase the prices of the goods and services they sell. Even the damned petrol stations use **** tons of electricity for lighting and pumps. And make no mistake - They do collectively have a say in the price of petrol. It is highly negotiated. And they too want to keep their profits healthy.

Right???

WRONG

FBE is a government initiative funded through treasury specifically through the local government equitable share. It's publicly funded. Eskom also receives grants from treasury above the bailouts it receives. It's incorrect to say that it's privately funded and increases the price of electricity when there's no means to do that. What happens though is that funds are misappropriated and indigents are misclassified so the correct people don't get it.

If you want to blame anything for the cost of electricity blame corruption, mismanagement and 240k brooms that could fund FBE for a thousand households. Heck if it wasn't for that everyone could get FBE and a lot more than 50kW.

 

[Swa]

No red herring. The claim was that 50KWh is not enough because it's from 2003.

Ultimately the hand me downs become more efficient as stuff available from the mid 2010s became more and more efficient as mandated by Europe and passed on to other markets.

Lighting takes a lot of power. The current LEDS run at 5-10W each instead of 60-100W as in the 2003 era. Very few hand me downs exist in 2025 from the 1990s or early 2000s.

The poor of 2003 also used hand me downs, but hand me downs from the 1980s or 70s. Those were even worse.

Yes it's not enough because it's based on the price from 2003. The 50kW is irrelevant here as it's about what people pay for the rest as has already been explained to you in many different ways but you're too obtuse to understand it. The red herring here is your claim that it's sufficient because appliances have gotten more efficient. You're also overestimating the efficiency.

Strawman. I don't have basic needs. I use more and I never claimed I only use basic. I also have medical aid and a nice house and a car and private security and computers back here... so that means everyone should have the same?

I, like you, subsidize a lot of people. Please don't make this personal.

You're the one making it personal. You yourself can't get by with less but you want other people to. You're also not the only one subsidising stuff so don't count yourself as special.

That does not make sense. If they need to buy so much more than 50KWH is not that basic. Fact is that if it was fine in 2003, it's even more fine now.

Stop being obtuse. It was not enough for basic needs in 2003. How many times do we have to say it? But people could afford to buy more. Now they can't.

That's irrelevant. What's relevant is that the free electricity has been above inflation. Electricity increased in price at above inflation rates but this stayed the same, ergo it increased at above inflationary rates. The need to use more electricity is not there. The whole thing about LEDs, LED TVs, and so on is that there is no need to use more now than in 2003.

A rubbish argument. The portion people need to buy is more and has also risen above inflation.

Yes, you can start by voting out the ANC and partially abolishing the BEE.

I have never voted ANC so you're confusing me with someone else. I've also advocated for abolishing BEE completely and in fact that people should be free to privately discriminate however they want.

 

[Swa]

You're comparing expensive central heating, double glazing and insulation in Europe to heating an RDP house with a tin roof and no ceiling or a shack? The South African climate has short, acute winters with warm spells opposed to the long, persistently cold winters of Europe. There is no comparison.



Exactly what I said. The 1000% price increase does affect the supplementary electricity that had to be bought in 2003 and now though.

LOL. It's no use arguing with him. He's of the mindset that indigents should only use lighting and none of the rest he considers luxuries.

 

[phoneJunky]

You all are arguing for different things

1- The FBE calculations never intended to cover geysers, heaters and most cooking and with efficiency of appliances the 50kWh does go further now than 2003. It also in effect cost more now than 2003 to give this benefit.

2 - Electricity now is more expensive now, any supplementation after the FBE cost a lot more now and this is constraining many more indignant households and it might be to expensive for them to have a fully functioning house as they had previously.

Both can be true

You can argue what the needs analysis should be to update the FBE needs that they currently cater for, but you are going to have to ask where that money is going to come from as we are already at 5% deficit every year, so I don't think government is going to be able to find that cash.

 

[Mirai]

Yes it's not enough because it's based on the price from 2003. The 50kW is irrelevant here as it's about what people pay for the rest as has already been explained to you in many different ways but you're too obtuse to understand it. The red herring here is your claim that it's sufficient because appliances have gotten more efficient. You're also overestimating the efficiency.

No it can't simply be based on the 'price' of overall electricity.

You're the one making it personal. You yourself can't get by with less but you want other people to. You're also not the only one subsidising stuff so don't count yourself as special.

Swa, please listen. I am claiming that 50KWh today is the same as 50KWh in 2003. It's not that R200 worth of power was given in 2003 and now R200 of power is still given.

Stop being obtuse. It was not enough for basic needs in 2003. How many times do we have to say it? But people could afford to buy more. Now they can't.

If it was not enough in 2003 for 'basics' then it was never a basic allowance. We would have to go into details of that. But my point is still correct focus please: Just because it's from 2003, does not mean it's not enough in 2025.

A rubbish argument. The portion people need to buy is more and has also risen above inflation.

I'm not stopping anyone from giving money to the poor or voting whichever party they wish. By all means vote the ANC and maybe they'll increase this. ALL I'M SAYING SWA and you can't seem to avoid personal attacks is that 50KWH is the same AMOUNT of power, in fact it stretches even further.

But how much free power do you want to give to everyone?
And can ESKOM and the local power lines support it?
And who will pay for it?

I have never voted ANC so you're confusing me with someone else. I've also advocated for abolishing BEE completely and in fact that people should be free to privately discriminate however they want.

You are failing to address the elephant in the room while getting obsessed with band aid solutions.

As someone told you, more free stuff for the poor mean that we all pay more including companies. That means the poor will also pay for this by having to pay more for services and products. There is no such thing as a free lunch or perpetual motion.

 

[Quicks]

And they can claim previously disadvantaged indefinitely

That's exactly it, it's been 30 years... Another 100 years they will still be beating the Apartheid drum.

Apartheid only lasted 46 years, it's has been 31 years with BEE being the new Apartheid.

 

[Mariner]

You also don`t know what an indigent is.

Indigent means suffering from extreme poverty or lacking money and basic necessities. It refers to individuals who are impoverished and unable to afford essential needs.

Definition of INDIGENT

suffering from extreme poverty : impoverished; deficient; totally lacking in something specified… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Indigent people are poorer than the poor who have some means of support and income. The indigent have no means of support or income. Hence, the means test is used to qualify as indigent.

Shacks are poor class and I doubt that any of them are paying for electricity at all.

Many pay for electricity using prepaid meters.

Indegent is a class above the poor class.

No, it isn't. The poor have a means of support or income. Indigents have none. The Afrikaans word is far more descriptive - Armslastiges.

Poor is relative. Being poor in the USA means an apartment in a bad neighbourhood, fake Nike sneakers and a beat up car. In SA it means a shack which eventually becomes an RDP house, Pep Stores sneakers and no car.

Indigent houses can be worth up to R2 million. Their houses are no different to a middleclass house. They have large tvs, geysers, heaters, electric stoves, everything.

Indigent does not describe the living conditions of a person. It describes their means of support and income. You cannot use any of the appliances you have if you have no means of support. Indigent persons can live in anything from shacks to houses worth up to a specified amount.

The Indigent

The term indigent is defined as, “lacking the necessities of life”. The necessities for survival is defined (but not confined to the following requirements) in the South African Constitution as;

• Sufficient water
• Basic sanitation
• Refuse removal in denser settlements
• Environmental health
• Basic energy
• Health care
• Housing
• Food and clothing

A Brief Understanding of The Indigent system in South Africa

In 2005, the Social Sector Cluster approved the Municipal Indigent Policy as part of the social wage package. The Municipal Indigent Policy was instituted to guide the national initiative to improve the access to free basic services and the overall standard of living for the indigents in the...

crosscheckonline.co.za

Your statement about that Cape winters are not that bad is also false. The Cape winter is by far the worst in SA. It might not have the low temps like higher areas, but the higher areas have no wind when its cold, and its dry. When a front hits the Cape, the humidity climbs to 90%, and there is storm winds that blow that cold straight through the small gaps of closed windows and under doors. The Cape winter is a bitch, people that visit from Europe say they never get as cold as when they are in the Cape during winter.

I lived in Cape Town for 30 years in the Fish Hoek valley, which runs north-west to south-east. So it gets the South Easter and the North Wester. People do not freeze to death in tin shacks in Cape Town as they do on the plateau. The wet Cape Town winter is long and unpleasant, but not deadly.

 

[Mariner]

Allow me to show you what an indigent house looks like. If you buy this house, even if you earn R150k per month, you only pay indigent rates:

3 Bedroom House for sale in Victoria Park - Somerset West - Property24

Three-Bedroom Home with Office Space and Versatile Living Areas This well appointed home offers flexible living options perfect for families or those working from home. Enjoy a spacious sunroom with double sliding doors ideal for hot summer days that leads into the living and dining area...

www.property24.com

That is untrue. Your income (or, rather, lack of income) determines whether you are indigent or not. A person earning R150k a month would not pass an indigent means test. The indigent cannot buy a house either.

Once again, indigent is not dependent on what you own up to a certain asset ceiling. It is dependent on your means of support and income. You can be employed and living in an R1M home and lose your job, finding no employment and drowning in debt. You are then indigent as you cannot afford the basics. Selling the house takes months. You cannot go that long without food.

 

[Mirai]

Showering daily -- is it necessary? - Harvard Health

...

www.health.harvard.edu

Maybe South Africans shower too much.

 

[Mariner]

The Cape winter is a bitch, people that visit from Europe say they never get as cold as when they are in the Cape during winter.

Of course, they don't get as cold in Europe as they do in Cape Town. European homes have double glazing and central heating with excellent insulation, which is lacking in Cape Town. I lived in Europe through two winters with snow and I was never cold. It's only 300 metres in the cold till you're in the warmth again, wherever you go. Shorts and T Shirt are the norm inside a home in a European winter.

 

[Mirai]

Of course, they don't get as cold in Europe as they do in Cape Town. European homes have double glazing and central heating with excellent insulation, which is lacking in Cape Town. I lived in Europe through two winters with snow and I was never cold. It's only 300 metres in the cold till you're in the warmth again, wherever you go. Shorts and T Shirt are the norm inside a home in a European winter.

It's not an issue that 'oh it doesn't snow' so we can waste expensive electricity by radiation.

SA hokkies have NO INSULATION at all. SA homes also have very little insulation. Sometimes people put some foam in the attic and if the home is built of brick it retains some temperature either way, the air space in the attic also helps a bit. Ceramic tiles on the roof also help. But SA homes are not geared for heating.

So wasting money on heating is not going to cut it. You must know that heating spaces made of metal or even brick houses will cause a lot of wasted energy. Energy all generated by ESKOM which is barely able to keep us out of LS by cutting power areas because of local grid issues, deindustrialisation, high uptake of solar by the 'rich' and burning expensive diesel.

Giving the indigent means to waste more energy will just clobber ESKOM and the economy to the ground. That's the reality. It's not that they should not be allowed to stay warm, it's that it's unsustainable when your heater wastes the energy so much because of no insulation.

As for Europe energy prices are increasing there too because of the loss of Russian gas and switch to expensive Norwegian and American LNG. Many people however live in flats/apartments which allow for central heating which allows for better scaling and better economy of use. Those with houses have their own 'boilers' in seperate rooms or basements.

It's all nice to cry - oh the indigent don't have enough - but that can be solved by giving them cash. People already pay high tax rates in SA and in return get nothing.

 

[TrueSeeker]

WRONG

FBE is a government initiative funded through treasury specifically through the local government equitable share. It's publicly funded. Eskom also receives grants from treasury above the bailouts it receives. It's incorrect to say that it's privately funded and increases the price of electricity when there's no means to do that. What happens though is that funds are misappropriated and indigents are misclassified so the correct people don't get it.

If you want to blame anything for the cost of electricity blame corruption, mismanagement and 240k brooms that could fund FBE for a thousand households. Heck if it wasn't for that everyone could get FBE and a lot more than 50kW.

The LGES is just a mechanism whereby the municipalities get a bigger profit share. That profit comes from electricity sales. To paying customers. AFTER the cost of the FBE is subtracted, as an expense. And the profit share they end up getting - They are mandated to use it to maintain and expand the infrastructure they're responsible for, including to those can't or won't pay.

That is still ultimately money coming directly from paying electricity users. Central government just takes less of a cut. And the FBE provided is therefore directly subsidised by paying customers. Basically... on-site. It never touches the treasury.

And let's not pretend that any direct funding from treasury, which this is not, it's a funding mechanism, a hidden tax, for any purpose under the sun is not also at the expense of those same paying households and businesses, however much the kitty is diluted through corruption.

And then there's Eskom direct.
+- :
- >4000 households
-3000 industrial
-1000 mines
-49000 businesses
-84000 agricultural
No LGES. Just a public mandate.