Free basic electricity problems in South Africa

[Swa]

Dude, if someone says ABSOLUTE AMOUNT is now not enough because it's from 2003 then yes it's a "fixation" on that an absolute amount. You're arguing uncharitably because you're arguing in a sloppy way.

Because that's the statement being argued. You're being sidetracked by thinking which is not rigid in this case.

You're asserting a lot of irrelevant things.

LOL, goodness gracious. Nobody claimed in 2003 it was the absolute amount that was needed. You want to be fixated on a fixed amount of usage.

Swa, I never claimed it was for all needs. This is your strawman.

You need to argue your points with ESKOM. You need to PROVE your above assertions. You're also shifting the goalposts here.

Don't argue with me when ESKOM tells you that it's a basic allowance for basic poor household needs.

SWA you're wrong. Face it. Try to wrap your mind around it. Your logic is off. And you're using insults and attempts at 'gaslighting'.

I am still correct. You need to brush up on your use of basic logic.

Swa, publish a peer reviewed paper, and we'll talk. It will still be wrong to assert 50KWH is not enough because it's from 2003.

If as ESKOM claim it was enough for basic needs THEN, it is SURELY enough for the SAME BASIC needs.

You can't claim top ups are more expensive-- that's a DIFFERENT argument and not relevant to 2003.

Swa, swallow your pride. You're often wrong here.

We never argued that it wasn't basic. Basic is not the same as what's needed. Eskom is not saying this is all that a person needs. Get that fact? One meal a day is a basic need. It's not all that a person requires to be healthy.

You're the one arguing like a schoolyard kid throwing toys claiming you're correct when faced with the real facts and insulting people's intelligence and humanity. TROLL of note.

So buzz off. I'm no longer going to entertain your shite and I don't need to do anything to satisfy you. There are people in higher positions that understand the argument and have been calling for a review. If it happens they will be part of setting a new "minimum". Your and my arguments here are ultimately irrelevant.

 

[Mirai]

LOL, goodness gracious. Nobody claimed in 2003 it was the absolute amount that was needed. You you want to be fixated on a fixed amount of usage.

ESKOM determined (maybe in a flawed way or who knows, it's not relevant here) that 50KWh was ENOUGH for the MINIMUM. It's the minimum GPU/CPU/RAM the video game will run at.

We never argued that it wasn't basic. Basic is not the same as what's needed. Eskom is not saying this is all that a person needs. Get that fact? One meal a day is a basic need. It's not all that a person needs to be healthy.

Strawman. I never claimed 50KWH was all that was needed.


Swa, take it up with ESKOM. I provided the link.

 

[Mariner]

It is still true that it is a fallacy to say that because 50KWh is from 2003, its NOW not enough.

It wasn't in 2003. It still isn't. The supplementary electricity now costs 10 times what it did in 2003. The income has not kept up.

 

[Benedict A55h0le not]

Indigent means suffering from extreme poverty or lacking money and basic necessities. It refers to individuals who are impoverished and unable to afford essential needs.

Definition of INDIGENT

suffering from extreme poverty : impoverished; deficient; totally lacking in something specified… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Indigent people are poorer than the poor who have some means of support and income. The indigent have no means of support or income. Hence, the means test is used to qualify as indigent.



Many pay for electricity using prepaid meters.



No, it isn't. The poor have a means of support or income. Indigents have none. The Afrikaans word is far more descriptive - Armslastiges.

Poor is relative. Being poor in the USA means an apartment in a bad neighbourhood, fake Nike sneakers and a beat up car. In SA it means a shack which eventually becomes an RDP house, Pep Stores sneakers and no car.



Indigent does not describe the living conditions of a person. It describes their means of support and income. You cannot use any of the appliances you have if you have no means of support. Indigent persons can live in anything from shacks to houses worth up to a specified amount.

The Indigent

The term indigent is defined as, “lacking the necessities of life”. The necessities for survival is defined (but not confined to the following requirements) in the South African Constitution as;

• Sufficient water
• Basic sanitation
• Refuse removal in denser settlements
• Environmental health
• Basic energy
• Health care
• Housing
• Food and clothing

A Brief Understanding of The Indigent system in South Africa

In 2005, the Social Sector Cluster approved the Municipal Indigent Policy as part of the social wage package. The Municipal Indigent Policy was instituted to guide the national initiative to improve the access to free basic services and the overall standard of living for the indigents in the...

crosscheckonline.co.za

I lived in Cape Town for 30 years in the Fish Hoek valley, which runs north-west to south-east. So it gets the South Easter and the North Wester. People do not freeze to death in tin shacks in Cape Town as they do on the plateau. The wet Cape Town winter is long and unpleasant, but not deadly.

Wrong you are. I explained what the indigent class is in SA, yet you ignore the facts. In SA you have a poor class, who can not afford to pay anything. Above this there is an indigent class who can afford to pay indigent rates. These classes are defined by the state and municipalities. I posted a link of an indigent house in SA, R2bar, with 3 bedrooms and a tv in each bedroom. Your posted definition might be what it is considered internationally, yet this definition does not apply to SA with a large poor class below the indigent class. SA has some of the poorest people on earth.

 

[Mariner]

Wrong you are. I explained what the indigent class is in SA, yet you ignore the facts. In SA you have a poor class, who can not afford to pay anything. Above this there is an indigent class who can afford to pay indigent rates. These classes are defined by the state and municipalities. I posted a link of an indigent house in SA, R2bar, with 3 bedrooms and a tv in each bedroom. Your posted definition might be what it is considered internationally, yet this definition does not apply to SA with a large poor class below the indigent class. SA has some of the poorest people on earth.

I will concede that the indigent definition in South Africa is defined by individual municipalities.

But, can you tell me when a poor person becomes indigent or an indigent person becomes poor? That will clear up the difference we may be squabbling over.

 

[Benedict A55h0le not]

I will concede that the indigent definition in South Africa is defined by individual municipalities.

But, can you tell me when a poor person becomes indigent or an indigent person becomes poor? That will clear up the difference we may be squabbling over.

All municipalities define it the same. It might be that the income limit for being too wealthy for indigent differs, but this might also be the same. However, most indigents are defined to be indigent simply by the area where they live. The municipalities define indigent on a map, per suburb. I researched COCT`s definitions and they define poor and indigent by area or housing scheme and suburb. If you live in a poor class suburb or housing scheme, you pay R0 for the house/flat and R0 for rates and taxes. If you live in an indigent area you pay indigent rates and taxes. There is however also lots of theft and non-payment of services in indigent areas. The poor class can`t/don`t pay anything, and the indigent class is supposed to be able to afford indigent housing and rates.

 

[Mariner]

The municipalities define indigent on a map, per suburb. I researched COCT`s definitions and they define poor and indigent by area or housing scheme and suburb. If you live in a poor class suburb or housing scheme, you pay R0 for the house/flat and R0 for rates and taxes. If you live in an indigent area you pay indigent rates and taxes.

Not necessarily. That is for Cape Town. I know of people living in the second biggest house in a town in another province in the best area of that town who are classed indigent.

Edit for context:

They're pensioners who were living off investments. Those investments disappeared due to Covid lockdowns. They have only a tiny income remainder of about R1500. The municipal value of their house allows them to qualify for SASSA. Due to qualifying for the SASSA old age pension, they are classed as indigent.

 

[Benedict A55h0le not]

Not necessarily. That is for Cape Town. I know of people living in the second biggest house in a town in another province in the best area of that town who are classed indigent.

Did you read the part where I said that they all define it in the same way? It is the same across SA - indigent is defined by suburb on a map. This is why you get rich people with middle class houses who is classified as indigent simply by being in an area classified as indigent by the municipality.

 

[Benedict A55h0le not]

It is like a geo-socialist neo-Apartheid system. The price you pay for x is determined by the state based on your area on a map. The poor class pay R0. The indigent class get some free and then pays half price. The middle class over-pays for x to subsidize the 2 lower classes.

 

[Mariner]

Did you read the part where I said that they all define it in the same way? It is the same across SA - indigent is defined by suburb on a map. This is why you get rich people with middle class houses who is classified as indigent simply by being in an area classified as indigent by the municipality.

That is untrue. Different municipalities have different criteria:

Municipalities subject all applications to means tests to determine whether households applying meet the criteria set by their municipality to qualify for indigent status. There are different categories of subsidies as set out by the various indigent by-laws/policies of the municipalities. In some municipalities, households qualify for 100% subsidies while other qualify for less that 100% depending on the criteria set.

Municipalities have different dynamics and thus have a variety of methods to identify indigents. The following are the most commonly used methods:

• Whether the applicant is a bonafide South African citizen, with valid identification document;
• If applicant is not a SA citizen, do they have recognized refugee status, (proof to be provided);
• Is the applicant residing in a dwelling (formal and informal), (fbs is provided for households);
• Is the combined monthly household’s income below the income poverty thresholds as set by the municipal indigent by-law;
• Applicant to submit proof that they cannot afford to pay (UIF card, bank statements, proof of income, letter from employer confirming salary or wages);

https://www.cogta.gov.za/index.php/2019/05/11/do-you-qualify-for-free-basic-services/

 

[Benedict A55h0le not]

That is untrue. Different municipalities have different criteria:

Municipalities subject all applications to means tests to determine whether households applying meet the criteria set by their municipality to qualify for indigent status. There are different categories of subsidies as set out by the various indigent by-laws/policies of the municipalities. In some municipalities, households qualify for 100% subsidies while other qualify for less that 100% depending on the criteria set.

Municipalities have different dynamics and thus have a variety of methods to identify indigents. The following are the most commonly used methods:

• Whether the applicant is a bonafide South African citizen, with valid identification document;
• If applicant is not a SA citizen, do they have recognized refugee status, (proof to be provided);
• Is the applicant residing in a dwelling (formal and informal), (fbs is provided for households);
• Is the combined monthly household’s income below the income poverty thresholds as set by the municipal indigent by-law;
• Applicant to submit proof that they cannot afford to pay (UIF card, bank statements, proof of income, letter from employer confirming salary or wages);

https://www.cogta.gov.za/index.php/2019/05/11/do-you-qualify-for-free-basic-services/

Nope, you are being misled. They have these definitions because you can apply for indigent status even when living in a middle class area. However, these cases are only exceptions and your indigent status application is likely to be declined if you live in a middle class area. 99.999% of indigents are classified as this simply by living in an indigent area. Municipalities are not capable to do the admin to track who really is indigent or not, so they mainly define it by geo location. What I say here is confirmed by my own experience and research, as well as someone who worked for the state in a position that is relating to this matter.

 

[Mariner]

Nope, you are being misled.

I am? Did you read the COGTA Document on how different municipalities determine indigent status according to their differing criteria? Here it is again. Read it this time:

https://www.cogta.gov.za/index.php/2019/05/11/do-you-qualify-for-free-basic-services/

Municipalities are not capable to do the admin to track who really is indigent or not, so they mainly define it by geo location.

I'm aware of different municipalities that have different criteria. Not all are by geo location. Specifically the one that has the second biggest house on a huge plot in the town classified as indigent.

What I say here is confirmed by my own experience and research, as well as someone who worked for the state in a position that is relating to this matter.

Present that experience, research and evidence. I have presented the official COGTA version twice now.

 

[Bigjay84]

Your biggest problem, is nothing is free, someone some where is paying for it

 

[Swa]

I will concede that the indigent definition in South Africa is defined by individual municipalities.

But, can you tell me when a poor person becomes indigent or an indigent person becomes poor? That will clear up the difference we may be squabbling over.

The legal definition is anyone who needs assistance for their essential needs. You're going with the dictionary definition which is more akin to poverty and not being able to afford anything.

Be that as it may indigent and who gets assistance are two different things in practice. Most municipalities have simply classed indigents according to the apartheid era racial demarcations, including anyone living in a township by default. Beyond that those with disabilities and earning below a certain threshold can apply for a subsidy on rates and taxes as well as services like FBE and FBW. In Ekurhuleni pensioners are classed by default if they apply with extra assistance based on income. Any house below R750k gets FBW of 6kl/month. There's a deduction on taxes of R150k for everyone so if you live on a piece of land below that you don't need to pay any tax.

 

[Mirai]

It wasn't in 2003. It still isn't. The supplementary electricity now costs 10 times what it did in 2003. The income has not kept up.

Aha it clicks and Swa even voted you up.

Ergo your argument should be that it wasn't enough then and it still isn't now.

However ESKOM says, as per their website, it's for the basics. i.e. the minimum. People here struggle with the definition of basics i.e. minimum.

They assume it's maximum, or average or expected or comprehensive or general or some such.
It's not.

Anyhow ESKOM said it was good enough then. You and Swa need to argue with ESKOM and not use poor logic here because you're both stubborn and don't want to be shown you're wrong in your argumentation.

Even the article is poorly written because they talk about average use, but this is a minimum allowance. What's more the article says something else, a million homes don't even get this 50KWh allowance because of deficient admin. That's a different issue but an issue you should be championing instead, let those who don't even get their 50KWH get that before you call for 300KWH for every home which is poor.

There is no need to throw insults, claim someone is confused or 'fixated' or doesn't know what poverty is because someone who spends winters in northern Europe knows what poverty is, right? Oh and there are also some extremely poor people in Europe as well.

+++++++++++++

Current price of electricity is irrelevant to what I'm arguing. That's not to say that the poor have it extremely hard. They do.

The question is:

If we give everyone 300KWH because electricity is so 'expensive' now, who will pay for this? If ESKOM has to donate a chunk of free power, someone else will have to pay. It's gonnna be the industry and the residential customer who will have to pay more. So middle class households will see their bills shoot up. Or as Swa says, it's from the treasury, as though it's from the US or EU treasury. It's from the South African treasury. It's from TAX. Ergo we'll either see PIT/VAT go up OR we'll see money for hospitals, police and schools get channeled into free power. This will make other things more deficient as already sick people won't have access to medical care or there will be fewer teachers or schools so even more poverty. Given our government runs the country poorly and dislikes whites (and maybe others too), there is a question as to what is best here.

At the same time I understand the plight of the poor. Just last week I purchased two WW roast chickens for a beggar family in
the WC. I often give people money and also to charity and pay a lot, a lot of tax. I could avoid more tax, because I often don't submit expenses and medical expenses and other things but the gov here milks me dry.

So anyway, what is the solution? Who will pay for all this free power? Never mind that electricity is not an efficient way of heating or cooking. And never mind that local electricity infrastructure in some of those areas is already fscked.

 

[Mirai]

Your biggest problem, is nothing is free, someone some where is paying for it

Swa says it's from the treasury, so I suppose it's money that will be printed or maybe donated by our 'allies' Iran, Russia or China.

I'm being sarcastic here. But the kind of thinking here is silly. It's OK, it's from the treasury. It's not your money, Mrs Taxpayer.

 

[Mirai]

It is like a geo-socialist neo-Apartheid system. The price you pay for x is determined by the state based on your area on a map. The poor class pay R0. The indigent class get some free and then pays half price. The middle class over-pays for x to subsidize the 2 lower classes.

No, people will say it's the treasury which pays. Otherwise they'd have burnt that money.

 

[Mariner]

Ergo your argument should be that it wasn't enough then and it still isn't now.

That was my argument from the beginning. It hasn't changed. You have danced around it posting walls of text instead of acknowleding it.

 

[Mirai]

That was my argument from the beginning. It hasn't changed. You have danced around it posting walls of text instead of acknowleding it.

You want to save face. I won't press you anymore.

 

[Mariner]

You want to save face. I won't press you anymore.

Read the thread again and post anything I said differently then.

Over to you. See if you can smear my face in the dirt for changing my view. I challenge you.