Free For All

[icyrus]

My 2c: Windows and Linux out of the box are not even close to OS X on user experience and ease of use. They just aren't. But Apple control the hardware platform that OS X runs on so its no a fair comparison.

I have installed windows and many flavors of Linux and with both I have had times when the default install does not recognize the network card. On windows, normally the hardware comes with a driver, but on Linux you often need to download and recompile a new driver (which can be a challenge within itself if you dont have a network connection). Now I know how to do this so its not a problem for me, but what about the average user?

Personally, every time I install a flavor of Linux I have issues with sound. Whether its applications fighting over a lock on the sound system or incorrect mixing or no mixing at all (although the latest ubuntu release is better). I guess all these problems can be attributed to the fact that very few hardware manufactures actually supply Linux drivers and even fewer make them open source, but the end user doesn't care why it doesn't work properly, they just care that it doesn't.

Another thing that annoys me about Linux desktops is the whole GTK vs Qt issue. I don't care what toolset my application uses, I want them to look unified in my desktop environment of choice.

For me, if I had to give up my Mac I would got back to Linux, but it still has some way to go before it can really challenge windows on the average desktop.

 

[w1z4rd]

Well today, I did a compiz update, and my desktop could do about 20 new things it could not do yesterday. I have some of the coolest themes animations effects going that can not be replicated in windows.

My linux desktop out performs windows desktop in just about every aspect.

Icyrus: in what way is linux lacking behind windows? I can think of one. Gaming. I have a pretty extensive list now of things that my windows desktop can not do.

When you give the Dapper Drake release of Kununtu a try, and are able to figure it out (its really not hard. I know some pretty normal people who find it extremely easy to use..) let me know what you think, and how you can not believe you could live without half the functions.

When I boot up into windows, its dull lifeless and just not as cool as I once thought it to be.

Windows is playing catchup now imho

 

[RoosTa]

Last night I updated my kernel from i386 to K7 (smp). It turned out to be relatively easy to do, however I'm still having problems with my motherboard (Xpress chipset) and I had to reinstall many components, like fglrx, mesa, XGL and compiz (it was updated to the new one ). Long story short, before I found a 'fix' for my motherboard, gnome was crashing a lot. But here's the beauty of it all: after locking up CTRL-ALT-Backspace. No hard-lockups, no need for rebooting and no BSOD.

 

[capdog]

I would also like to point out that the new default repositories for Ubuntu Edgy include 99% of the software that you normally have to install for a working OS. This includes things like Opera, Google Earth, DivX codecs, MP3 codecs, DVD codecs, the MS core fonts, and a whole bunch of stuff I wont list here.

THAT is the best damn news I have heard all year!

AWESOME!

 

[Raithlin]

...the only Distribution I would ever advocate a new Linux user to install is Ubuntu or (at a stretch) MEPIS.

Care to explain why MEPIS is a stretch? I'm running MEPIS 6 (UBUNTU core), and find it even smoother than Ubuntu! It picks up absolutely everything, works from the get-go, and allows me to use my root account!

For the record, I'm still dual-booting WinXP (dev and games), but as of last night am setting up my PC with a common data drive (NTFS for now, for the lack of a better format both can use). It's all a matter of time.

 

[Paul_S]

Care to explain why MEPIS is a stretch? I'm running MEPIS 6 (UBUNTU core), and find it even smoother than Ubuntu! It picks up absolutely everything, works from the get-go, and allows me to use my root account!

For the record, I'm still dual-booting WinXP (dev and games), but as of last night am setting up my PC with a common data drive (NTFS for now, for the lack of a better format both can use). It's all a matter of time.

Native NTFS write support in 2.6 is still very dicy!
It WILL screw up your NTFS partition sooner or later if you do a lot of writing to it.
Captive NTFS is one of the best solutions but it can't be publicly distributed because it uses the Microsoft NTFS.SYS driver.

"This month, however, the holy grail came within sight with Szabolcs Szakacsits from the Linux-NTFS team presenting a new beta NTFS filesytem driver built to work with FUSE, an extensible system for userspace filesystems.
Tentatively titled NTFS-3g, it features full/read write support for NTFS filesystems without the need for the proprietary Microsoft NTFS driver."
http://www.apcstart.com/site/amills/2006/08/870/linux-to-get-reliable-ntfs-write-support

My solution is to simply mount my ext3 partitions under Windows as ex2t using Ext2 IFS from http://www.fs-driver.org

It installs a pure kernel mode file system driver Ext2fs.sys, which actually extends the Windows NT/2000/XP operating system to include the Ext2 file system. Since it is executed on the same software layer at the Windows NT operating system core like all of the native file system drivers of Windows (for instance NTFS, FASTFAT, or CDFS for Joliet/ISO CD-ROMs), all applications can access directly to Ext2 volumes. Ext2 volumes get drive letters (for instance G: ). Files, and directories of an Ext2 volume appear in file dialogs of all applications. There is no need to copy files from or to Ext2 volumes in order to work with them.

 

[Raithlin]

"This month, however, the holy grail came within sight with Szabolcs Szakacsits from the Linux-NTFS team presenting a new beta NTFS filesytem driver built to work with FUSE, an extensible system for userspace filesystems.
Tentatively titled NTFS-3g, it features full/read write support for NTFS filesystems without the need for the proprietary Microsoft NTFS driver."

Exactly the driver I was looking at using. I did some searching last night prior to reaching my decision, and found some interesting tuts on MepisLovers.com - all pointing at the new 3g driver.

I will take your ext3 advice into consideration too. Thanks.

[EDIT]
Ubuntu ntfs-3g HOW-TO
Gentoo ntfs-3g HOW-TO
[/EDIT]

 

[icyrus]

Icyrus: in what way is linux lacking behind windows? I can think of one. Gaming. I have a pretty extensive list now of things that my windows desktop can not do.

When you give the Dapper Drake release of Kununtu a try, and are able to figure it out (its really not hard. I know some pretty normal people who find it extremely easy to use..) let me know what you think, and how you can not believe you could live without half the functions.

When I boot up into windows, its dull lifeless and just not as cool as I once thought it to be.

Windows is playing catchup now imho

I've used ubuntu and I am well aware of the extra features and functionality a linux desktop gives you over windows. I used gentoo for almost 2 years everyday at work so I know how easy it is to customize linux to fit your needs perfectly.

For me, linux is better than windows for my needs but it lacks the polish that windows and OS X have. New distros like ubuntu are looking to address this but with the massive amount of choice a user has in the OSS world there will always be some app that doesn't quite fit. It will get there eventually, but its not there just yet.

 

[Darkling]

Care to explain why MEPIS is a stretch? I'm running MEPIS 6 (UBUNTU core), and find it even smoother than Ubuntu! It picks up absolutely everything, works from the get-go, and allows me to use my root account!

To be honest, I have a slightly less than noble reason for saying MEPIS at a stretch... But Im going to give the long version intead of a simple retraction.

In 1995, I installed RedHat, with absolutely no support, and only the flimsiest of cd-books for instructions, I soon found that the hundreds of fantastic applications on the CD may as well have been on the moon since I had absolutely NO idea that you had to mount cd's. RedHat didnt last long. Then in 98, I found a Distro that installed KDE by default, and fell in love.
I used KDE ever since. Then I got Ubuntu. What one needs to know is that Ubuntu installs Gnome by default, a UI that I had only played with very occasionally. KDE always remained my primary Desktop.
But with Ubuntu, things changed, and for reasons very applicable in the mybroadband context. Ubuntu ships on one CD, and installs Gnome by default with no option for KDE (Kubuntu installs KDE by default), I was disgusted! How could they give me this crappy Gnome UI??? Bastards! But what could I do? I was 200 Megs from capped and it was 2 weeks till the new month.
So I used Gnome.
And fell completely, totally and utterly in love with it. Within 2 days, I had decided that I wasnt going back to KDE unless KDE pulled something pretty damn special out the bag.

Gnome gives you a simple slate to build your desktop on, while KDE maxes out on the menu's options, toggles, colours, doodads and widgets. With a little customising, my Gnome looked even better than my KDE. I now use the SLAB, a main menu developed by Novel/SuSE and kicking the Start Menus ass.

http://scr3.golem.de/screenshots/0603/Novell_Next_Generation_Desktop/beagle-slab.jpg

So, I said MEPIS at a stretch because it installs KDE by default, and I dont like or recommend KDE any more. Previously I would also have mentioned that QT wasnt Free software initially. I wont though.

Note: I use FUSE NTFS support everyday for writing to my NTFS drives. In all my time using it, I have had 2 failiures where a file simply failed to copy. I have had absolutely no corruption of my NTFS drives, and none of my Windows HDD scanners have picked up any errors. This after hundreds of Gigs worth of copying.

 

[Darkling]

For me, linux is better than windows for my needs but it lacks the polish that windows and OS X have. New distros like ubuntu are looking to address this but with the massive amount of choice a user has in the OSS world there will always be some app that doesn't quite fit. It will get there eventually, but its not there just yet.

Ubuntu 6.10 will blow your mind.

 

[Raithlin]

To be honest, I have a slightly less than noble reason for saying MEPIS at a stretch... But Im going to give the long version intead of a simple retraction.

<snip />

Gnome gives you a simple slate to build your desktop on, while KDE maxes out on the menu's options, toggles, colours, doodads and widgets. With a little customising, my Gnome looked even better than my KDE. I now use the SLAB, a main menu developed by Novel/SuSE and kicking the Start Menus ass.

http://scr3.golem.de/screenshots/0603/Novell_Next_Generation_Desktop/beagle-slab.jpg

<snip />

Note: I use FUSE NTFS support everyday for writing to my NTFS drives. In all my time using it, I have had 2 failiures where a file simply failed to copy. I have had absolutely no corruption of my NTFS drives, and none of my Windows HDD scanners have picked up any errors. This after hundreds of Gigs worth of copying.

Thanks for the (expansive) explanation. I'll be checking out SLAB. And I'll be going ahead with the ntfs-3g installation.

 

[icyrus]

Ubuntu 6.10 will blow your mind.

I very much doubt it. I've used gentoo unstable for long enough to know what bleeding edge is and what it can do.

 

[Raithlin]

@Darkling:
Will SLAB work with KDE, or should I just accept that I have to go Ubuntu?

 

[JTech]

I use Arch Linux for servers, for other uses I use SuSE 10.x and for demonstration purposes I use a Knoppix Live CD

 

[Darkling]

@Darkling:
Will SLAB work with KDE, or should I just accept that I have to go Ubuntu?

Unfortunately Slab is Gnome only, but all is not lost for the KDE users out there. KDE 4 is introducing their new Menu called kickoff.
http://home.kde.org/~binner/kickoff/sneak_preview.html

I very much doubt it. I've used gentoo unstable for long enough to know what bleeding edge is and what it can do.

I'm not referring to the package versions, I'm referring to the overall packaging. Ubuntu isn't just a bunch of packages, the developers are adding their own stuff every day in order to tie the entire OS together. The overall effect is that Ubuntu is a much better package overall than almost any other distro's, gentoo included. And yes, I know gentoo backwards, I was running it until just 2 weeks ago when I erased it in favour of the Ubuntu Edgy beta.

 

[Raithlin]

KThx.

So when is Ubuntu 6.10 expected to be released?

 

[Darkling]

Edgy Eft final should be out on the 26th of October.
I'm looking forward to it, and am saving my bandwidth for it

 

[icyrus]

I'm not referring to the package versions, I'm referring to the overall packaging. Ubuntu isn't just a bunch of packages, the developers are adding their own stuff every day in order to tie the entire OS together. The overall effect is that Ubuntu is a much better package overall than almost any other distro's, gentoo included. And yes, I know gentoo backwards, I was running it until just 2 weeks ago when I erased it in favour of the Ubuntu Edgy beta.

Are you refering to the ubuntu themes, sounds and images or the intergration they do getting all the components to work together?

The ubuntu team to a good job and in my experience it is the best desktop distro. Still there is nothing that the linux community is going to release anytime soon that will make me switch back to linux from OS X for desktop use.

 

[Darkling]

Are you refering to the ubuntu themes, sounds and images or the intergration they do getting all the components to work together?

The ubuntu team to a good job and in my experience it is the best desktop distro. Still there is nothing that the linux community is going to release anytime soon that will make me switch back to linux from OS X for desktop use.

Referring to the integration they do throughout the system, getting everything working together nicely. ie. Their network control panel.

I wont knock OS X as I have never used it, but a lot of people have told me its hard to change too much of it, and its very much a like it or leave it interface. I know its a solid design and uses some of the best desktop metaphor designs out there.
I have also heard that people have been fooled by a properly themed Gnome, though I cant vouch for that.

 

[icyrus]

Referring to the integration they do throughout the system, getting everything working together nicely. ie. Their network control panel.

They have done a good job and it has come along way. I am looking forward to trying the new version and seeing if the sound/font issues that always plague linux are more or less resolved.

I wont knock OS X as I have never used it, but a lot of people have told me its hard to change too much of it, and its very much a like it or leave it interface. I know its a solid design and uses some of the best desktop metaphor designs out there.
I have also heard that people have been fooled by a properly themed Gnome, though I cant vouch for that.

OS X is nowhere near as customizable as any linux desktop. But to be honest I haven't seen the need for the level of customization I used to do on Linux since I switched. But hey, that a personal thing.