Gartner Analysts Warn That Windows Is Collapsing

[Kasyx]

A result of what I had to go through to get it to work under windows actually. For instance on windows you have to make sure that your soundcard drivers are installed first. that wasn't the case in linux. worked on first boot.

on windows i would have to load the nvidia drivers. rebbot. load the soundbalster drivers. reboot. load the tv card drivers. reboot. then run it.

EDIT: It strikes me how arrogant it is of you to assume that other OSes cannot perform simple tasks like that more simply than a Windows OS.

I completely agree. I have never had any of these "compatibility issues" of which you speak. The only time I have ever had trouble installing a piece of hardware was my PCI 802.11/g card on Windows XP. Funnily enough, though, on Linux it ran absolutely perfectly.

I do not understand why, when one's hardware functions incorrectly under Windows, it isn't considered to have "bad compatibility". Nor is the installation , rollback or update of new drivers considered particularly difficult:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/setup/support/driver.mspx

That isn't as easy as you think, in fact I'd say that getting drivers to work under Linux (which I haven't had an issue doing in the last year) is probably easier than doing it in XP. You people act as if it is horrifying, PHD-level astrophysics to make changes in a desktop Linux system, when it is just as easy as using the Windows control panel, only the icons look different and have different names. It's like you are refusing to drive a free Ferrari because it has 6 gears and you are only used to five, thus it would be "too difficult". Linux can do all the simple crap you mouth-breathing Windows users expect, and then some.

Also, Skeptik, please elaborate on all these "bugs" in Linux? I'd love to hear about it.

 

[milomak]

i really hate to turn things to a linux v windows fight, but for my experiences, linux uses my hardware a whole lot better than windows for the same set of functions. for instance in linux, i can have my tv card runnig constantly in the background and i feel no loss of usuage with other apps. in windows, when i fire my tv card up, i basically have to tell myself i am just going to watch tv.

 

[.Froot.]

What makes an operating system survive? Three things: User-friendliness, reliability and support. Windows has one of those. Linux has 2.5/3....

 

[milomak]

to comment on what froot has said above, i would guess the one half is due to perceived user-friendliness. but i remember being involved in a thread about 18 months ago with fedora users on what you had to go into the console to fix. in the end we came up with 5 issues. i think java was one of them. can't remember the others.

given advances, i will try to find that those issues and see if those 5 still stand. though i should add, that all 5 at the time had very concise FAQs on how to solve the issues.

EDIT: Not to say all distros would have had the same issues.

 

[Moto Guzzi]

Linux motivated

Disagrees.

Opensource are a recipe for disaster and chaos.....later on.

The problem is, if organised system like Windows fall flat, because of open source propaganda...it will only be later the chaos sets in....Where does thats going to leave us as users?

Windows has become a target from all angles, so their programmers are probably spending half there time fighting this onslaught.

Bill should just drop his prices for a start..

I realize that Linux/Opensource feed those individual creative minds, but still look at all we as consumers face in any shop today...Confusion The wheel has been invented a trillion times over.....

We want one good controlled system...

 

[.Froot.]

Disagrees.

Opensource are a recipe for disaster and chaos.....later on.

The problem is, if organised system like Windows fall flat, because of open source propaganda...it will only be later the chaos sets in....Where does thats going to leave us as users?

Windows has become a target from all angles, so their programmers are probably spending half there time fighting this onslaught.

Bill should just drop his prices for a start..

Or Bill should just retire already and let Linux continue ruling the world.

 

[Skeptik]

Bill should just drop his prices for a start..

That wouldn't help Linux because the number of Windows users would climb and for many groups (schools) there would be little advantage in choosing a free system.

 

[milomak]

And so? If Linux can't compete in an environment of cheaper Windows prices it would just mean that it is not a superior OS. As I have already said, for my needs it is a superior OS.

Remember one thing Linux existed with a far less user base than it has today. So if it were to shrink it does not mean it leads to its extinction. Some of us use it due to its functionality rather than an anti-MS sentiment. there are enough of us out there to keep it going.

Maybe it will lead to lesser distros, but i doubt Linux as a concept will cease to exist.

 

[ShockG]

1. Bill Gates is no longer at Microsoft just in case you didn't know.

2. Bill Gates never set the pricing for your windows copy a Incredible Connection just as Tim Sweeny at Epic didn't set the price of Gears Of War to R599 at Toys-R-Us.

3. At the end of it all the better operating system is the one that does what you need it to do in the easiest way. Right now that's Windows and there can't really be any contention to that.

4. Open Source is great, but it isn't everything and can be its worst enemy at times. Microsoft's complete dominance in real time rendering API's is not as a result of them doing something evil to the competitors, it's the competitors themselves that destroyed their own chance of surviving.

5. The superiority complex of most Linux advocates and their seemingly condescending attitudes are probably not winning many people over. :/

 

[milomak]

1. Bill Gates is no longer at Microsoft just in case you didn't know.

whoop de do da. Just in case you don't know, Henry T Ford is no longer at Ford.

Sorry. Bill is still synonymous with MS. So many people still see it has his company. In any event I suspect he is still one of the major shareholders and thus actually still carries a lot influence.

2. Bill Gates never set the pricing for your windows copy a Incredible Connection just as Tim Sweeny at Epic didn't set the price of Gears Of War to R599 at Toys-R-Us.

MS (and a great deal of US companies) has what is called a minimum retail price (MRP). What's more there is a price that MS prices their goods to suppliers at so its unlikely they will will charge less than that. Please tell us what MS charge their suppliers. You are right Bill Gates never directly said charge them this amount. But as CEO he was certainly aware of what the MRP was.

3. At the end of it all the better operating system is the one that does what you need it to do in the easiest way. Right now that's Windows and there can't really be any contention to that.

For you that may be the case. For me it is not.

4. Open Source is great, but it isn't everything and can be its worst enemy at times. Microsoft's complete dominance in real time rendering API's is not as a result of them doing something evil to the competitors, it's the competitors themselves that destroyed their own chance of surviving.

I will say read up on OpenGL v Direct3D for instance on this viewpoint.

5. The superiority complex of most Linux advocates and their seemingly condescending attitudes are probably not winning many people over. :/

Thing is, there are linux zealots. But in the same token there are Windows zealots. There are even Vista zealots against XP zealots. I like to think I am aware of where I stand because of things I have tried and having chosen what works best for me.

Some people will defend Linux to the death on all matters even where it is weak. Same how some will defend Vista because they have taken the plunge even though they wish they hadn't. Same how some will defend XP because they do not have the resources to go to Vista though they would like to.

But then you will get people for whom Vista is exactly what they want. Same for XP. Same for Linux. So your superiority complex statement is a difficult one unless you are totally unbiased. Your statements suggest otherwise.

 

[Gnome]

Opensource are a recipe for disaster and chaos.....later on.

What a bunch of drivel, open source is the future if you want to accept it or not. Any programmer worth his salt will tell you so, Linux fanboy or not.

You'll find the only people who appose it are A) Corporate heads or B) Idiots who have been brainwashed by corporate heads to believe it is a bad thing. If you've actually ever written your own program and actually know what you are doing then you'd know how frustrating it is to discover a bug in a program and not be able to fix it because of closed source, simply one of the benefits of open source.

 

[milomak]

ShockG - As at 13 Nov 07, Bill Gates held 857,499,336 shares. Somewhere in the region of 2.5x more than the shares held by the company with the most shares (Barclays Global Investors UK Holdings Ltd). That roughly means he holds just short of 10% as a single individual. Now I don't know whether you are familiar with the business world, but to singularly control close to 10% of MS and be the single largest shareholder means you have more influence than the CEO can ever hope to have. Unless of course the CEO can get a good number of the other shareholders to vote against you.

Go to Yahoo Finance and click on Major Holders.

 

[ShockG]

whoop de do da. Just in case you don't know, Henry T Ford is no longer at Ford.

Sorry. Bill is still synonymous with MS. So many people still see it has his company. In any event I suspect he is still one of the major shareholders and thus actually still carries a lot influence.

It's these kind of ill-conceived and dim responses that make linux punters look like religious evangelists more than sensible people. He may have shares but that tends to happen when you start a company and stay there for a significant amount of time. For the same reason Jon Carmack would have shares at ID software but that doesn't mean he said Doom3 should be R299 at BT Games. Why would people bother with having an accounting department etc... "Hey why don't' we just ask the boss how much all the software should be?"

MS (and a great deal of US companies) has what is called a minimum retail price (MRP). What's more there is a price that MS prices their goods to suppliers at so its unlikely they will will charge less than that. Please tell us what MS charge their suppliers. You are right Bill Gates never directly said charge them this amount. But as CEO he was certainly aware of what the MRP was.

It's MSRP actually, but then again since you know so much already you probably knew that. Anyway product pricing is not determined by the CEO, but by many other factors. Products sell at the price they need to to make a certain amount of revenue for the company. This is not decided upon by Bill Gates but likely the accounting department under the guidance of the CFO. When Bill Gates was at Microsoft his role was not to worry about the pricing of the software, but to steer the company in a secure and profitable direction. That has no direct bearing on what Incredible ended up charging for Vista Home Premium.

I will say read up on OpenGL v Direct3D for instance on this viewpoint.

I actually have, I have written several articles on the API's and their histories. In fact one of the ones I wrote got my my current job today
Just a little bit of info for you, Microsoft approached the OpenGL ARB about having OpenGL as the rendered of choice in DirectX. They were turned down and that's when work on Direct3D started.
You many find it interesting as well, that the OpenGL2.0 was spear headed by ATI who later abandoned the work sighting SGI's and other ARB member's disinterest in moving the API forward as reason. Subsequently the OpenGL2.0 today looks allot like what 3DLabs had put forward as a final working model based on the work by ATI.
Direct3D today is head and shoulders superior to OpenGL as an API and you need only ask any developer out there which the would rather be working with. DirectX10 or OpenGL2.1?

So in light of the above I would suggest you revisit your response to what I had written in light of Microsoft having the lead in graphics API's.

 

[Gnome]

I actually have, I have written several articles on the API's and their histories.

Link to a list of your publications or a link to said articles?

Or are you like a magazine writer of sorts?

 

[ShockG]

I'm not going to do that for you, those who know who I am will gladly testify to that. I can tell you I've had dinners with the some of the driver team guys from ATI and the like and have had in-depth discussions with them on such matters. Besides who I am has no bearing on anything, since you are the one who insinuated I do some reading, please repute what I have written above with some information it would help.
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We stray though from the debate point is I'd be hard pressed to believe or take seriously anything written on a pro Linux site against windows. Maybe a neutral source would be better.

 

[milomak]

ShockG - I suspect you need to go back on your company law. You state "By law, he cannot have an influence on retail pricing of microsofts products". Can you tell me at what ownership percentage an owner is allowed to influence the price of the products owned by a company he owns?

Let me tell you now, the shareholder or shareholders with the largest influence can set the price they want the product sold at. Yes. They can. As long as they do not collude with other owners of other companies to be anti-competitive. Oh but us "Linux punters" can't possibly be working in fields other than computer related ones.

as to MRP...oops sorry MSRP. Don't know if you missed this part in my post above - "You are right Bill Gates never directly said charge them this amount".

As to the OpenGL v Direct3D argument - I will concede you have the greater technical knowledge there. What are your thoughts then on MS wanting the OpenGL to move away from being an OpenSource project?

 

[Gnome]

I'm not going to do that for you, those who know who I am will gladly testify to that. I can tell you I've had dinners with the some of the driver team guys from ATI and the like and have had in-depth discussions with them on such matters. Besides who I am has no bearing on anything, since you are the one who insinuated I do some reading, please repute what I have written above with some information it would help.
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We stray though from the debate point is I'd be hard pressed to believe or take seriously anything written on a pro Linux site against windows. Maybe a neutral source would be better.

It wasn't a personal attack or a attack on your opinion, in that whole statement I had no opinion whatsoever. But for future reference, unless articles are peer reviewed they don't have much meaning in a debate, just as a pro-Linux site/forum/source etc. is of no use.

 

[Kasyx]

I'm not going to do that for you, those who know who I am will gladly testify to that. I can tell you I've had dinners with the some of the driver team guys from ATI and the like and have had in-depth discussions with them on such matters. Besides who I am has no bearing on anything, since you are the one who insinuated I do some reading, please repute what I have written above with some information it would help.
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We stray though from the debate point is I'd be hard pressed to believe or take seriously anything written on a pro Linux site against windows. Maybe a neutral source would be better.

And I did, in fact, write the original Linux kernel, Linus merely stole it from me whilst I was asleep. I was gonna call it Kasyx.

Unless you back up your claims with proof, don't expect us to believe you

 

[ShockG]

What are your thoughts then on MS wanting the OpenGL to move away from being an OpenSource project?

I have not read on such as yet, and I cannot say. The only advantage that OpenGL may have on Direct3D is that it's portable to many platforms OpenES for mobiles etc... Something not easily achieved with Direct3D esp in its DirextX10 guise as it has a massive footprint to begin with. I can't say much more than that as I will have no way of knowing why OpenGL in-house would be beneficial to Microsoft. :/

Unless you back up your claims with proof, don't expect us to believe you

Be it you believe me or not is of no importance, argue the merits of what I write not me as a person. Whomever I may be it does not change what I have put forward about the APIs.

Don't know if you missed this part in my post above - "You are right Bill Gates never directly said charge them this amount"

I did.

Let me tell you now, the shareholder or shareholders with the largest influence can set the price they want the product sold at. Yes. They can. As long as they do not collude with other owners of other companies to be anti-competitive. Oh but us "Linux punters" can't possibly be working in fields other than computer related ones.

what can be done and what is done are two different things fortunately. I trust Bill Gates is wise enough to know that he is not an accountant and the thought of setting a direct price by virtue of having shares worth 10% in the company isn't one that crosses his mind that often.
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However once again we are arguing the person and not the product. Where personal; preference goes its clear that the numbers prefer windows, for whatever reason that is, bottom line is they prefer windows. They prefer windows so much that even if there is a better product out there, they don't really care which is why they keep buying it no?

Where end user operating systems go, interface wise and probably usability wise Mac is superior. On technical prowess* Linux is superior (save for the entertainment space, Linux doesn't even feature). In combining the two however, windows is king, it's not the best at anything but does everything sufficiently enough that several millions of people clearly could not be bothered with the alternatives.

 

[milomak]

ShockG - on matter of product, I stated in my earlier replies in this thread why Linux works for me over Windows. I stated clearly how Linux works better for me as compared to an XP (an let me state now that Vista was no better), but you seemed not to pick up on that.