George Floyd death

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buka001 said:
I didn't know Hitler was your hero?
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This isn't even Godwin's law. He at least gave people some credit, that arguments will eventually just degenerate into people calling each other Nazis.

You just pull the Nazi card straight up. There isn't even a argument to start off with.
 
vigras rojara said:
And there you were this morning telling me not to assume who people's heroes were.

And yet a few hours later here you are. Good for you.
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At least I am not defending people's 'free speech' to kick helpless people on the ground. Do you support their 'free speech'??
 
Vrotappel said:
You have been defending their 'free speech' the whole thread, have you not? Don't try and back out now.
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Free speech is not the same as physical violence. I have not supported any acts of violence.

The concept that I can understand and emphasise with how people wish to express their frustrations with statues that represent the very racist views they are fighting against, makes sense.

I wouldn't personally do it. Would rather put it in a museum, but hey I have never been oppressed.

So no heroes here. But go on with your ad hom and I shall return with equal deliverance.
 
rietrot said:
This isn't even Godwin's law. He at least gave people some credit, that arguments will eventually just degenerate into people calling each other Nazis.

You just pull the Nazi card straight up. There isn't even a argument to start off with.
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That's the point I made. If he chooses to say I support violence, without evidence I can call him a Nazi without evidence.
 
Vrotappel said:
At least I am not defending people's 'free speech' to kick helpless people on the ground. Do you support their 'free speech'??
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Who is supporting anyone kicking anyone?

I have seen several people support the policeman who murdered George Floyd though.
 
cerebus said:
www.nytimes.com

The Two Churchills (Published 2010)

Churchill led Britain through her finest hour but, as this history shows, he had his own disturbing history of conquest, racism and brutality.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

www.independent.co.uk

Not his finest hour: The dark side of Winston Churchill

Winston Churchill is rightly remembered for leading Britain through her finest hour – but what if he also led the country through her most shameful hour? What if, in addition to rousing a nation to save the world from the Nazis, he fought for a raw white supremacism and a concentration camp...
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk
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Thanks. These are contemporary, not from his time as I asked. It remains judging with 9/10 hindsight.

They make for interesting reading though, they mention the concentration camps where many of my gran's bothers and sisters died. Yet I still don't support tearing down his statue, nor defacing it.
 
When it comes to CIC Malema, at least he has been consistent with xenophobia,

www.iol.co.za

Xenophobic South Africans can’t champion #BlackLivesMatter – Malema

EFF leader Julius Malema has criticised sections of the South African community championing the #BlackLivesMatter movement while they maintained silence or supported the attacks when foreign nationals
www.iol.co.za www.iol.co.za

Xenophobic South Africans can’t champion #BlackLivesMatter – Malema
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Pretoria - EFF leader Julius Malema on Monday criticised sections of the South African community championing the #BlackLivesMatter global movement while they maintained silence or supported the attacks when foreign nationals, particularly African immigrants, were brutalised on numerous occasions in South Africa.

“While you kill Zimbabweans, Mozambicans, Nigerians and Somalians here in South Africa and you call them 'makwerekwere' and all sorts of names, today you are holding a placard saying #BlackLivesMatter? You supported the killing of your fellow black brothers and sisters, and you have some useless hashtag on social media saying #PutSouthAfricaFirst. That is narrow nationalism,” Malema told protesters outside the US embassy in Pretoria.

“The problem of black people is not a problem of South Africa. A black man is hated everywhere, be it in China, France and everywhere. Instead of saying South Africa first, we must be saying Africa first, black first.”

Malema said the problem of racism continues to grow across the world because many Africans suffer from “self-hate”.

“You don’t respect yourselves. If you loved this black face, when you are about to burn a Zimbabwean, you see the tears of a black fellow African crying for his or her life, then you should see yourself in that person and stop immediately. It is not a problem of Zimbabwe or of Nigeria, the problem is self-hate,” said the outspoken opposition leader.

“We are one family. Borders were imposed on us. You must not buy into the story of the existence of Botswana or of Lesotho because all these borders are an imagination. You are saying #BlackLivesMatter, yet you support the borders. You say you don’t like imperialism and colonialism but you support the borders. The border was created by colonisers.”

Malema, joined by EFF treasurer-general Omphile Maotwe and secretary-general Marshall Dlamini, led a crowd of protesters demanding justice for African American George Floyd, who died at the hands of white police officers in the US state of Minnesota. The killing of Floyd has sparked protests in different parts of the world under the #BlackLivesMatter movement.

Malema also denounced the crushing of dissent in African countries.

“Ramaphosa has no leg (to stand on) to pretend that he cares about black lives. Those American police saw Ramaphosa instructing the South African police to kill black people.

"They knew that if African authorities have no regard for black lives, why should we respect black lives? People are killed in Zimbabwe, Nigeria and in the Democratic Republic of Congo by their own governments when they protest, when they stand up to say ‘you can’t be a president forever’ they get killed for raising legitimate demands. You are teaching the world that there is no value for black lives. You cannot kill people for saying the truth,” said Malema.
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however, when he was still ANCYL he dubbed those who acted in xenophobia as agent provocateurs,

www.iol.co.za

'Agent provocateurs' behind attacks: Malema

ANC Youth League president Julius Malema says people who chased foreigners out of Mbekweni near Paarl should be ashamed of themselves, but doesn't believe they were driven by xenophobia.
www.iol.co.za www.iol.co.za

But neither Malema nor Deputy Police Minister Fikile Mbalula believe that tension in the area is a result of xenophobia. Instead, they blame "agent provocateurs" who "enjoy violence among blacks".

...

He said the "agent provocateurs" involved in inciting the recent violence would be exposed. "They enjoy violence among blacks. They enjoy us killing each other. They can't sleep when we have peace."
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Now going into the archives, Fikile being Fikile in 2010,

Mbalula claimed that criminals were hiding behind a concept they did not understand - xenophobia - and that the definition of this word needed to be debated. He asked why white foreigners had not been affected in the Western Cape if it was xenophobia.

He also challenged the notion that foreigners were taking jobs from locals.

"What are these jobs the people have taken from you? Working in a madam's kitchen, saying: 'Yes, madam, no, baas.' Earning peanuts and being treated like dogs? Is that the jobs? Those are not real jobs," Mbalula said.
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:rolleyes:

Politicians. Priorities.
 
rietrot said:
Not a dominant culture, but rather a shared identity. Culture can be a mix match of anything, it doesn't matter. But for people to coexist they need a shared identity.
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Of perhaps culture is better explained as the externalization and implicit binding force of a shared identity? Culture tends to run along ethnic lines, the current american experiment where a new cross-ethnic culture was created is failing because they are still unable to properly cement a real shared identity.
 
Sollie said:
Thanks. These are contemporary, not from his time as I asked. It remains judging with 9/10 hindsight.

They make for interesting reading though, they mention the concentration camps where many of my gran's bothers and sisters died. Yet I still don't support tearing down his statue, nor defacing it.
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The quotations in there are not contemporary, they are from his time
 
Sollie said:
Thanks. These are contemporary, not from his time as I asked. It remains judging with 9/10 hindsight.

They make for interesting reading though, they mention the concentration camps where many of my gran's bothers and sisters died. Yet I still don't support tearing down his statue, nor defacing it.
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That was Kitchener though, Churchill was just a war correspondent,but I see your point.

I don't agree with Churchill's statue being defaced, but I can understand it and it does open up discussions over him, but ultimately in my view Churchill stance against the Nazis deserves his place as such.

But some random slave trader that nobody really knew about until this weekend? It's an interesting hill for everyone to die defending on.
 
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