Hamas Clarifies Truce Would Only Be to Plan Next War

Killing unarmed Turkish humanitarians in international waters is definitely the work of the most moral army in the world. :whistle:

Humanitarians with about fifty freelancers without paperwork who were paid to create an international incident? C'mon.
 
Why would you say within their right ? If we take emotion out of the equation and not align with a side. If we look at it that way what option would you say they have ? How would you react ?



And the world would just sit still ? Do you believe it ? Did the world sit still when Germany wiped out the Jews in WWII ? Israel is anything but moral in this case. Is it moral to deny people basic needs for example ? I am not saying Hamas is necessary always right , neither am I saying that Israel is.

What I am asking though is given the circumstances and history how should they react ?

I think its rather absurd to kill thousands of innocent people and stand on your high ground claiming to be moral. This goes for both sides

Lets just say "more" moral. I don't see anyone enacting any kind of morals.

1: The world did sit back when Hitler started exterminating the Jews. The camps started before the war, war in Europe as only declared after Hitler broke two agreements and had already taken over several countries. America only joined after it was attacked 3 years later. The death camps were rumours until the end of the war.

2: No, the world does not actually care about Palestine (Sad as that is) they already sit back and watch the death. Even Americas biggest threats care even less about a Palestinian state.
 
I disagree to some extent, Israel is the most moral army the world has seen. This was even acknowledged by that British Colonel. The fact that scumbags use their rockets here kids and women are playing or living is not Israels fault

Again, I have come to a stage, that I just listen to the vitriol from either side...and just hope that somewhere along the line some moderates will be able to change the discourse...if not, no matter how strong you think a side is, there will be no winners coming out of this mess.... I thought there was hatred in South Africa, but the Middle East is in a category of its own.
 
Lets just say "more" moral. I don't see anyone enacting any kind of morals.

1: The world did sit back when Hitler started exterminating the Jews. The camps started before the war, war in Europe as only declared after Hitler broke two agreements and had already taken over several countries. America only joined after it was attacked 3 years later. The death camps were rumours until the end of the war.

These moral equivalence arguments are amusing especially when you put it in the context of WW2.

In the 30s people advocated Nazi Germany's right to....

as a sovereign nation to re-arm.
re-militarize the Rhineland
Eliminate the unjust punitive provisions of the Treaty of Versailles

Sound familiar?

Furthermore they argued that these were the sources of Nazi aggression and that concessions and negotiations in the form of appeasement would avoid conflict.

Sound familiar?

and of claims to the moral high ground during the war...

Germany's policy of lebensraum = British and French colonialism
Axis racial policies = America had segregation, mass internment of Japanese Americans and state funded/produced racist anti Japanese propaganda
Axis targeting of civilians = Deliberate targeting of civilians in the Allied strategic bombing campaign. They killed more innocent French men, women and children during the course of the war than the Germans killed Brits in the blitz!

Sound familiar?
 
time will probably be on the side of israel.
given the way the palestinian population is multiplying, they will probably be facing famine & disease within 5 years or so - of course, the evil west, europe & israel will probably be expected to clean up the mess.

“The population of the small Strip, whose area is 365 square kilometers [141 square miles], passed 1.865 million in March, or 5,109 people per square kilometer. Thus, the Gaza Strip is on the list of the most densely populated areas in the world,” said Riad al-Zeitouniya, the head of the Civil Status and Passport Department in the Ministry of Interior of the Gaza government, speaking to Al-Monitor.

According to Zeitouniya, the total number of births in Gaza in 2013 exceeded 56,000, while the first three months of 2014 saw more than 13,000. He added, “The increase of the population in the Gaza Strip is excessive; it is very large. Between 2000 and 2013, the number of Gazans increased by more than 687,000 people.”

A UNRWA report published in 2012 said that by 2020 Gaza’s population will reach 2.1 million, and pointed out that basic infrastructure such as electricity, water, sanitation and social services cannot keep up with the needs of the growing population. The Gaza Strip needs much more electricity, hundreds of new schools and hospitals and thousands of housing units by the year 2020.

“Gaza has become a dense urban area that is currently facing a housing units shortage estimated at about 71,000,” the report added.
Experts attribute this increase in population to the high fertility rate of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. The executive director of the Association of Family Planning and Protection, Muyassar Abu Mailaq, told Al-Monitor that the fertility rate for the people of Gaza has long been up to 5.7 children per woman. He said, “According to my work, family-planning methods in all government clinics and those affiliated with UNRWA are available. But some causes have led to increased fertility, thanks to eastern customs and traditions. Palestinian families like procreation, and they don’t consider five or six to be a large number.”

Abu Mailaq said that Gaza's fertility rate would be considered high even for developed countries with a high average income, let alone for a besieged territory suffering a blockade, extreme poverty, high unemployment and low per capita income.
Abu Mailaq warned of worsening health, marital and social problems, as well as educational problems caused by the high number of students in classrooms. There is also an absence of clear government population policies in the narrow Gaza Strip, increasing employment demands and difficult conditions.

It is worth mentioning that in Palestine, along with other Arab countries, laws limiting the number of children per family, such as those in China, are unthinkable. The issue is considered a matter of personal freedom.

Ahmed Fadel, a taxi driver in his 70s who is married to four women, told Al-Monitor that he has 22 children, the youngest of whom is a 5-month-old girl.
Along with the help of some of his adult sons, Fadel is barely able to cover the expenses of his large family, consisting of more than 55 people, including his four wives and grandchildren. But Fadel insists he likes having a large family, saying, "My father liked big families, and I have 15 brothers. Most of my relatives like to have large families. We don't like having two, three or even five. Large families are a good thing, and God will provide for us."

As for Hassan Sobh, 27, who married six years ago, he believes that having many children is not a problem, as a big family provides "protection."
Sobh, who works as a construction worker, told Al-Monitor that he wants a large family, perhaps as many as 20 children. He said, "I now have four sons. Despite the difficult economic situation facing us, I will not stop having children. I love [having children], and there is nothing preventing me from having more."

With the increased population, the proportion of poor people in the Gaza Strip has increased to about 39% of the population, according to the Palestinian Center for Statistics. More than 21% of the population lives in extreme poverty.

According to experts, the absence of population policies in the Gaza Strip and the lack of strategic plans to cope with its growth has turned Gaza’s population into a ticking time bomb. The director of Palthink for Strategic Studies, Omar Shaban, told Al-Monitor that the problem has become worse as no Gaza government — nor the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank or the international community — have put forward plans to cope with the population growth.
“Population growth,” he said, “is a bomb that can explode at any time and result in economic, social, educational and health consequences. The population in the Gaza Strip is one of the key challenges not only for the Palestinian political regime but also for the regional powers. It is a Palestinian, Arab and international responsibility. Unfortunately, not enough attention is being paid to develop solutions. There are warnings, as in the UNRWA report a year ago, and these warnings don’t propose any solutions.”
Shaban accused the Palestinian governments of excluding civil society institutions when putting together plans.

The UNRWA report concluded that in the absence of effective and sustainable remedial action and a favorable policy environment, the current challenges facing the people of Gaza will get worse. The UN expects the population to increase by 500,000 by 2020, warning the situation will get worse if action is not taken.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/04/gaza-growing-population-challences.html
 
This seems to be the veiw from a lot of people , I just want to ask or maybe look ahead. Lets say they do lay down their arms and peace do come to Gaza. What would that mean ? What would they go back too ? Would GAZA be free and able to control its borders ? Would they be able to govern themselves ? Would all illegal settlers be removed etc ?

I think if they laid down their arms, demilitarised Gaza and acknowledged Israel, then the process towards true freedom would begin. It won't be overnight, but the wheel would start turning.

As for the settlements, both the Israeli and Palestinian leadership have mentioned the willingness to come to territorial concessions, however, Israeli concessions would hinge on their demands on Hamas/the Palestinian leadership being met.

And the world would just sit still ? Do you believe it ? Did the world sit still when Germany wiped out the Jews in WWII ? Israel is anything but moral in this case. Is it moral to deny people basic needs for example ? I am not saying Hamas is necessary always right , neither am I saying that Israel is.

What I am asking though is given the circumstances and history how should they react ?

I think its rather absurd to kill thousands of innocent people and stand on your high ground claiming to be moral. This goes for both sides

I think marine1 was implying (in his response to Picard's question as to why no one has ''won'' the war) that the Israeli military has - aside from what you may think - restrained itself in dealing with Hamas. This is the same army and airforce that thumped Egypt, Jordan and Syria in six-days, conquering the Sinai Peninsula and securing air supremacy over Egypt, Jordan, Syria and eastern Iraq. If they wanted to they could erase Gaza and the West Bank from the map and seriously dent the offensive capabilities of any other neighbouring state, but they do not desire this. Sure, there are fringe lunatics within that may want this, but the people in power are clearly excercising restraint.
 
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I think if they laid down their arms, demilitarised Gaza and acknowledged Israel, then the process towards true freedom would begin. It won't be overnight, but the wheel would start turning.

As for the settlements, both the Israeli and Palestinian leadership have mentioned the willingness to come to territorial concessions, however, Israeli concessions would hinge on their demands on Hamas/the Palestinian leadership being met.
I doubt we will see Israel back off of those settlements. Had Israel moved just the military in there it would be a different story but I highly doubt they ever intend to move those civilians out of the occupied land.
 
I doubt we will see Israel back off of those settlements. Had Israel moved just the military in there it would be a different story but I highly doubt they ever intend to move those civilians out of the occupied land.
But didn't they do that back in 2005 ... ? Why wouldn't they do it again?
 
I doubt we will see Israel back off of those settlements. Had Israel moved just the military in there it would be a different story but I highly doubt they ever intend to move those civilians out of the occupied land.

And the problem is that Palestinians view this is a sign of bad faith when negotiating with Israel. Can you imagine the political ramifications of evicting those settlers, would be political suicide.
 
I think if they laid down their arms, demilitarised Gaza and acknowledged Israel, then the process towards true freedom would begin. It won't be overnight, but the wheel would start turning.

As for the settlements, both the Israeli and Palestinian leadership have mentioned the willingness to come to territorial concessions, however, Israeli concessions would hinge on their demands on Hamas/the Palestinian leadership being met.

Demilitarised Gaza? They have a military?
Israel does not want freedom, they want to kill the Palestinians.

If Israels territorial concessions include no right of return, it will NEVER be agreed with.
 
I think if they laid down their arms, demilitarised Gaza and acknowledged Israel, then the process towards true freedom would begin. It won't be overnight, but the wheel would start turning.

As for the settlements, both the Israeli and Palestinian leadership have mentioned the willingness to come to territorial concessions, however, Israeli concessions would hinge on their demands on Hamas/the Palestinian leadership being met.



I think marine1 was implying (in his response to Picard's question as to why no one has ''won'' the war) that the Israeli military has - aside from what you may think - restrained itself in dealing with Hamas. This is the same army and airforce that thumped Egypt, Jordan and Syria in six-days, conquering the Sinai Peninsula and securing air supremacy over Egypt, Jordan, Syria and eastern Iraq. If they wanted to they could erase Gaza and the West Bank from the map and seriously dent the offensive capabilities of any other neighbouring state, but they do not desire this. Sure, there are fringe lunatics within that may want this, but the people in power are clearly excercising restraint.

Well said
 
I doubt we will see Israel back off of those settlements. Had Israel moved just the military in there it would be a different story but I highly doubt they ever intend to move those civilians out of the occupied land.

Hence the term 'concessions'. Israel has indicated in the past that they would give up territory in other areas (as recently as 2013) while the Palestinian leadership in the past has admitted that they do not expect all of the settlements to be vacated. There is room to negotiate.
 
Demilitarised Gaza? They have a military?
Israel does not want freedom, they want to kill the Palestinians.

If Israels territorial concessions include no right of return, it will NEVER be agreed with.

Don't be silly. They have weapons and a functioning weapons program (even if of the 'homemade' variety, they can and do manufacture weapons), including rockets built on license from Iran. They also possess crew-serviced weapons such as heavy machine guns, mortars and rocket systems. The Taliban and Al-Aqaeda do not have a formal military and use the exact same weapons Hamas use, it did not - and still does not - stop them inflicting casualties on better equipped US-Coalition and government forces.
 
Don't be silly. They have weapons and a functioning weapons program, including rockets built on license from Iran. They also possess crew-serviced weapons such as heavy machine guns, mortars and rocket systems. The Taliban and Al-Aqaeda do not have a formal military and use the exact same weapons Hamas use, it did not - and still does not - stop them inflicting casualties on US-Coalition and government forces.

Proof of these "rockets" (not mortors, rockets).
Proof with pics they made in Iran?
Rockets sytems? Thats a new one. Whats their system consist of? A cold war Russian hand held launcher?

They a civilian organisation, they use whateevr scraps they can find, the left overs from Israel offensive.

Calling them an army is a misconception. Referring to a weapons arsenal is a misconception.

Hamas "their weapons" as you call it. 3000 fired in the past month. Wheres the damage? I believe the iron dome is a hoax, its shoots up rockets and blows itself up, NO, Zero, Nada evidence of any shrapnel of these "Iranian made weapon systems"
 
Hence the term 'concessions'. Israel has indicated in the past that they would give up territory in other areas (as recently as 2013) while the Palestinian leadership in the past has admitted that they do not expect all of the settlements to be vacated. There is room to negotiate.
Remember when Israel occupied those areas and put up the walls and said it was temporary? Ah... good times lol. :D
 
Stop provoking israel. It's that simple.
You want to challenge a military or naval blockade then you are looking for trouble
ah the corrupt morality of (Military) might is right.
 
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