HSDPA Tower listings

[Starstreak [clone of Skeptik]]

You recognize it by the BIG sticker on the big box next to the tower(what looks to be the power supply), that says either Vodacom or MTN

ok, next time i am on the roof ill check it out

 

[Iam3G]

The tower i havent been able to find is the one that gives me Coverage here at home.

 

[vodacom3g]

A lot of the answers here are rather disingenuous.

Can you please give examples of the "lots of answers" here that you deem "disingenuous", Mr. Skeptik?

 

[ic]

How do i recognise by looking which network it belongs to? Assuming i know what a GSM aerial looks like. u cant and it would take a lot of time to find out. Lets see Vodacom publish a list incl coords on this forum and well see whos BS or not!

You recognize it by the BIG sticker on the big box next to the tower(what looks to be the power supply), that says either Vodacom or MTN

EDIT: I think i may have seen a noticeable difference between MTN and Vodacom Towers, where Vodacom's towers cables are concealed by a cylinder type of covering and MTN's cables you can see clearly. Maybe V3G can confirm?

And one can look at the 2G CellID info display on one's cellphone to see that it corresponds to the area a base-station is situated in.

Lets see Vodacom publish a list incl coords on this forum and well see whos BS or not!

I really don't see why v3g should be expected to waste his time compiling a huge list of thousands of base-stations just to satisfy the likes of Skeptik trolls that aren't even going to use the info for anything constructive.

<added>Skeptik clone banned.</added>

 

[MidnightWizard]

Map of all Cellphone Towers

I really don't see why v3g should be expected to waste his time compiling a huge list of thousands of base-stations just to satisfy the likes of Skeptik

I am sure that V3G does not have to do any work at all. I am sure that the maps and other data all reside safely on a server somewhere in the constuction and maintenance dept. Not only at VC but also at the actual companies that were contracted to do the construction.

It is likely though that they are not in Keyhole Markup Language format but rather something like an ESRI format.

All V3G needs to do is tell a lackey to run some software and get ESRI to talk to Keyhole Haven't you guys learnt yet -- you get the COMPUTERS to do all the work.

Spilling the Beans

 

[ic]

I am sure that V3G does not have to do any work at all. I am sure that the maps and other data all reside safely on a server somewhere in the constuction and maintenance dept. Not only at VC but also at the actual companies that were contracted to do the construction.

It is likely though that they are not in Keyhole Markup Language format but rather something like an ESRI format.

All V3G needs to do is tell a lackey to run some software and get ESRI to talk to Keyhole Haven't you guys learnt yet -- you get the COMPUTERS to do all the work.

Spilling the Beans

And once all of that has been done, who is going to have to put it in a format suitable for posting here? - also consider that there is a limit on the number of characters per post, which means numerous posts to get all the data and formatting onto the forum, and then what would forumites actually do with the info? - not much IMO.

It all seems like a pointless waste of time to me.

 

[vodacom3g]

Still can't see the point in publishing a list of towers. As an end user you're not interested in the tower, but rather the coverage it provides. And that is published.

In 99.9% of cases, if the map shows you have coverage you just connect and use it. In the .1% of cases, it better to ask, in any case.

 

[bosun]

If it is indeed the case that you need to point your external antennae to the "closest site" why do you need a list of 3G sites nationwide? If you have a coverage problem log it with Vodacom - they will provide you with the information you need for you specific needs.

To question Vodacom3G technical competence, who has already proven his competence on this forum, over asking a valid question why you would need such a list is preposterous. Not only do you want a list of active site but future coverage too with GPS locations - maybe Vodacom could provide you with proposed future tariff changes too?

Obviously Vodacom could only provide the information on future network roll out plans upon receipt of your valid MTN employee number.....

I imagine network roll out plans are reasonably confidential (dont want any allegations of collusion do we....)

 

[ambo]

In 99.9% of cases, if the map shows you have coverage you just connect and use it. In the .1% of cases, it better to ask, in any case.

I would expect that the engineering guys would actually like the feedback on the performance of their network.

When end users try and get too clever with sorting out their connectivity problems you end up with kludges since the end user doesn't know the inner workings of the network. Additionally the radio planning guys will never be able to plan additional capacity/coverage/etc effectively if they don't know about 'dead spots'

 

[bosun]

I've been toying with the GoogleEarth idea.

PM me your co-ords on GoogleEarth or send me a GoogleEarth place-marker and I'll get the relevant people to chat to you. I know they'd prefer to rather speak with you instead of just sending you a location. They'll want to make sure they understand all the parameters first and will then help you point the antenna.

I've done something simlar and dialled 155 with the info, within a couple of days I had a call from one of the network guys and they basically confirmed what I had figured out through empirical testing.
However, be aware that if you are trying to position yourself by google earth, the pics can be up to 30 metres out (comparing where it shows my house to be to what my GPS says) but that should be sufficiently accurate unless you live between 2 faraday cages and a couple of very steep mountains with high iron content...

 

[Colin62]

Still can't see the point in publishing a list of towers. As an end user you're not interested in the tower, but rather the coverage it provides. And that is published.

In 99.9% of cases, if the map shows you have coverage you just connect and use it. In the .1% of cases, it better to ask, in any case.

Two issues:-

1. Many people who would like to know where the towers are, are trying to connect using an external antenna from outside the coverage area. The co-ords of the towers are very usefull in aligning the antenna properly. I have, however, had good results by dangling them from burglar bars, throwing them in the gutter, balancing them on bookcases and just dropping them on the ground outside the window.
2. The coverage map is out of date.


If I had been relying on the coverage map I would be a Telkom ADSL customer instead of a Vodacom 3G customer. When I started testing, I had no signal unless I used a Poynting antenna, which got me 3 bars of signal and a 3G connection. A local tower has since been upgraded (in December) and I don't need the antenna anymore, and I get HSDPA with ease. The coverage maps still shows no coverage anywhere near my home.

The coverage maps are calculated from data on the geography in the area, which may or may not be 100 percent accurate. On the other hand, I have been playing with radio transmitters for 35 years and I know what is possible between my house and the nearest town. And I was right - I did get coverage where the local Vodacom employees and the boffins at the data centre said I couldn't.

Just to conclude, the coverage map is at best an approximation of what to expect, but if it's out of date it is useless.

Colin

p.s. Did I mention that the coverage map is out of date?

 

[ic]

If one takes the time to read previous discussions about what the coverage map shows, specifically where forumites are able to get a 3G signal outside of coverage zones on the coverage map, one should see several posts where v3g explains that Vodacom deliberately errs on the side of caution - a case of under-promising and over-delivering.

 

[Colin62]

If one takes the time to read previous discussions about what the coverage map shows, specifically where forumites are able to get a 3G signal outside of coverage zones on the coverage map, one should see several posts where v3g explains that Vodacom deliberately errs on the side of caution - a case of under-promising and over-delivering.

I agree with the principle of erring on the side of caution. However, I still maintain that for users who are prepared to take the risk, or who know what they are doing with wireless data communications, a list of towers with GPS coordinates would be useful, particularly where they fall outside of the coverage area, and even when they are having hassles within the area.

None of which alters the fact that the coverage map (which has been touted as a viable alternative to providing a list) is out of date. Not updating the map when you have upgraded towers is not under-promising and over-delivering, but is plain and simple poor performance (by the team responsible for the website).

In real terms, I can live with the fact that there is no list of towers - I can infer where they are and get a good idea of what is possible from a good coverage map if I have to. The problem is that there are 3G towers out there smack in the middle of areas which the coverage map says have no coverage at all for miles around. The only way to know is to get in your car and go there, and if you have to do that, you'll need a road map, not a coverage map.

[mutter]I read all the posts, even those well over a year old, before posting earlier. I disagree with v3g's assertion that a list is not needed. This doesn't mean that I am criticising him, or that I didn't read his posts, just that my point of view differs from his. Seeing that the whole point of any forum is to swap knowledge and points of view, I think that's reasonable.[/mutter]

 

[vodacom3g]

I agree with the principle of erring on the side of caution. However, I still maintain that for users who are prepared to take the risk, or who know what they are doing with wireless data communications, a list of towers with GPS coordinates would be useful, particularly where they fall outside of the coverage area, and even when they are having hassles within the area.

None of which alters the fact that the coverage map (which has been touted as a viable alternative to providing a list) is out of date. Not updating the map when you have upgraded towers is not under-promising and over-delivering, but is plain and simple poor performance (by the team responsible for the website).

In real terms, I can live with the fact that there is no list of towers - I can infer where they are and get a good idea of what is possible from a good coverage map if I have to. The problem is that there are 3G towers out there smack in the middle of areas which the coverage map says have no coverage at all for miles around. The only way to know is to get in your car and go there, and if you have to do that, you'll need a road map, not a coverage map.

[mutter]I read all the posts, even those well over a year old, before posting earlier. I disagree with v3g's assertion that a list is not needed. This doesn't mean that I am criticising him, or that I didn't read his posts, just that my point of view differs from his. Seeing that the whole point of any forum is to swap knowledge and points of view, I think that's reasonable.[/mutter]

I'll check how often the map is updated and also what the level is that the map display. It's some dB level inside a typical structure, but I'll get the exact number.

 

[ic]

I disagree with v3g's assertion that a list is not needed. This doesn't mean that I am criticising him, or that I didn't read his posts, just that my point of view differs from his. Seeing that the whole point of any forum is to swap knowledge and points of view, I think that's reasonable.[/mutter]

It is a reasonable POV, and you are allowed to disagree, however there are very few people who have years of experience playing with radio transmitters, and instead are likely to get a professional like bdt to do their external outdoors antenna installation for them, i.e. the amount of effort involved in generating and maintaining a list of base-stations here on the forum, for thousands of base-stations all over the country, just doesn't seem to be worth the effort that would be involved.

If anyone really needs to position an external outdoors directional antenna [i.e. not an omni], I recommend downloading ginggs' MDMA application, and using it with one's HSPA modem: first get hold of the 2.xG CellIDs using the 2GOnly setting in MDMA, then make a list of the 2.xG base-station CellIDs that come up with the message "3G & HSDPA enabled", then have a look on a mapbook if unsure as to which direction those areas [and consequently base-stations are in]. Then switch to 3GOnly and fine-tune the antenna's directionality by monitoring the signal strength level displayed in MDMA, also don't limit your list of base-stations to those that are closest - sometimes even far away base-stations give better throughput [maybe backhaul issues], also run several speed tests for each when the antenna is optimally positioned [best signal strength] to get an idea of which base-station gives the best throughput. It's as simple as that.

Also note that often 2.xG base-stations and 3.yG base-stations are located on the same physical mast, so if one looks for the direction in which the strongest 2.xG and strongest 3.yG signal strengths are in [using MDMA] then one can further narrow down exactly which direction the actual masts [and consequently base-stations] are in.

 

[vodacom3g]

I'll check how often the map is updated and also what the level is that the map display. It's some dB level inside a typical structure, but I'll get the exact number.

OK, got the numbers but just trying to convert them to something that makes sense to more than rocket scientists. But basically you must be able to make a decent quality voice or video call within a structure, i.e. one wall from the outside.

What's also quite conservative (on the map) is the level of signal fluctuation at the points shown on the map. While you could easily make a cal even if the signal level varies quite considerably, the map indicates areas where there is a very small change of signal level changes.

So, all in all, the map is very conservative.

It seems the map gets updated around quarterly, depending on how many new sites are added and is due for a refresh in the next week or 3.

 

[Colin62]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[MidnightWizard]

Rocket Science

OK Here I go -- the Rocket Science Fiction writer

I was just thinking about this.... ( Dangerous sometimes )

THe point of Google Earth -- although it is not 100% accurate -- you get it for FREE is that everyone can have a look at it. Everyone can add their OWN layer

VC as it is a very BIG VERY rich company -- now looking to buy out MTN -- wonder what the competition board will say about that ?

Anyway VC could quite easily get THEIR Rocket Scientist RF engineers to do a VC mobile overlay for SA. nice Community help project.

Why not do an overlay where the Towers are indicated with little red dots or whatever and the RF coverage is indicated as rings -- this is basic cell phone micro cell stuff. It does not have to be that terribly accurate ( apart from the tower GPS co-ords.

You could even link up the tower RF output monitors to the net and get the Google Earth KML overlay as a LIVE RF coverage map "ring" if Google allowed you to do updates in real time -- I am sure that the VC control room already has something like this -- but then it is proprietary and not for thik fingered servints like us.

and thats Science NON Fiction

The thik fingered one.

 

[ic]

VC as it is a very BIG VERY rich company -- now looking to buy out MTN -- wonder what the competition board will say about that ?

Apart from being totally off topic, you are incorrect, VC|Vodacom is not trying to "buy out" MTN, I suspect you are confusing yourself with Vodafone which is not the same as Vodacom, and AFAIK any such buying into MTN by Vodafone would exclude MTN South Africa.

 

[vodacom3g]

But I must say, I like the Google idea.....