Hydrogen.. the way forward?

w1z4rd said:
Hehe.. okay, make predictions. Mine is that the hydrogen powered electric car will become the car of the future as opposed to the battery powered electric car.

Unless they can come up with an orsm technology that lets you recharge all those batteries in under 5 min. People are not ganna go with long recharge times.
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They are working on this problem. http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22280/

These batteries could potentially be charged in 10 seconds...
 
I would love to know what energy they use to create h2 (large scale, not lab conditions). I assume they are using electricity from the grid, this means that we have to construct:

Nuclear stations (radioactive waste)
Coal (massive co2, and other hazardous waste, e.g. mercury etc)
Wind or Solar (I would like to know the waste and energy consumption to construct these).

Also, how much extra juice do we need from stations to create enough h2 to replace petrol (in the long run)?
 
One of the key quotes from the Better Place interview was this which, I think, will make the widespread adoption of EVs possible:

DP: But it sounds like you're talking about a parallel universe, where there are hundreds of thousands of charging spots and switch stations. There aren't any.

SA: Well, that's what we're building. If you think of our first location in Israel, we will have about a quarter of a million charge spots before the first car shows up. Just like you wouldn't buy a cell phone on a network that wasn't built yet. You have to first build the network. And then let the cars come in.

And so we put a massive investment in big infrastructure projects: Green jobs. A new electric infrastructure for cars.
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Oh, and another thing, how can h2 cars claim to be zero-emission? You are simply shifting the emission from the car to the facility that produced the hydrogen in the first place. Once again, i doubt current solar or wind installations produce enough power for large scale h2 production.
 
Nuro said:
Oh, and another thing, how can h2 cars claim to be zero-emission? You are simply shifting the emission from the car to the facility that produced the hydrogen in the first place. Once again, i doubt current solar or wind installations produce enough power for large scale h2 production.
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+1

QFT

No one seems to realise the amount of energy it takes to get the Hyrdogen in the first place! Sure its the most abundant element but its always bonded to something else. You need to separate it from whatever first and that takes a lot of energy(dunno where we going to get that energy from either). Hydrogen power is not some wondrous thing, its just moving all the emissions (as Nuro said) further up stream.
 
Nuro said:
Oh, and another thing, how can h2 cars claim to be zero-emission? You are simply shifting the emission from the car to the facility that produced the hydrogen in the first place. Once again, i doubt current solar or wind installations produce enough power for large scale h2 production.
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Yeah know.. its pretty complicated.. requires lots of energy:
http://www.nmsea.org/Curriculum/7_12/electrolysis/electrolysis.htm

I am being a little sarcastic.. but its more tongue in cheek than serious.

Ive heard this argument before.. and after checking it out realized it doesnt hold water (pun intended). Though if you think our current coal produced electricity can keep it going.. great :)
 
hawker said:
+1

QFT

No one seems to realise the amount of energy it takes to get the Hyrdogen in the first place! Sure its the most abundant element but its always bonded to something else. You need to separate it from whatever first and that takes a lot of energy(dunno where we going to get that energy from either). Hydrogen power is not some wondrous thing, its just moving all the emissions (as Nuro said) further up stream.
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It currently costs the same as petrol to produce and doesnt require a lot of energy. As shown in my previous post...
http://www.nmsea.org/Curriculum/7_12/electrolysis/electrolysis.htm

You get it with electrolysis...
 
looks go and all, but actually implementing such a industry will kill the oil-petrol one, imagine what country America would attack next XD
 
w1z4rd said:
It currently costs the same as petrol to produce and doesnt require a lot of energy. As shown in my previous post...
http://www.nmsea.org/Curriculum/7_12/electrolysis/electrolysis.htm

You get it with electrolysis...
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Yeah, I presumed that electrolysis is used, but were are talking about a LOT of h2 here. The ouput rate also needs to be astronomical, which is why i *think* the energy requirement will be massive.

We need to output more h2 by volume than petrol, since the "Energy density by volume" of h2 is lower than petrol. Although, "Energy density by mass" of h2 is greater.

Edit: I used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density
 
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That's it: it's cheaper and more efficient simply to store the electricity in a battery rather than using electricity to make hydrogen to make electricity to drive a car.
 
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oober said:
They are working on this problem. http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22280/

These batteries could potentially be charged in 10 seconds...
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Great if it's a cellphone battery, but you still need to get that electricity from somewhere.

The tesla charges in 16 hours because the plug it's charging from is the limiting factor. If it runs on LiPo, it could charge in an hour or two, but you need a charger capable of outputting that much power.
 
Pyro said:
Great if it's a cellphone battery, but you still need to get that electricity from somewhere.

The tesla charges in 16 hours because the plug it's charging from is the limiting factor. If it runs on LiPo, it could charge in an hour or two, but you need a charger capable of outputting that much power.
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A charging station would necessarily have to have high current charging.
 
BlueCollar said:
That's it: it's cheaper and more efficient simply to store the electricity in a battery rather than using electricity to make hydrogen to make electricity to drive a car.
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Yeah, electricity to the car makes more sense. Fewer conversions, so it should be more effecient too.
 
guys the clarity is not a concept car you can buy it... they sell it in the US at the moment because there are hydrogen filling stations
 
I would imagine hydrogen is harder to work with then petrol, how do they manufacture it in large quantity? I understand the whole electrolysis process, but afterwords how do you get it into large say hydro-trucks?
 
Hybrids with constant velocity diesel or petrol engines (and regenative braking and regenative shock absorbers) make the most sense at the moment...
 
supersunbird said:
Hybrids with constant velocity diesel or petrol engines (and regenative braking and regenative shock absorbers) make the most sense at the moment...
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Fair enought...but the problem is the cars will just be getting more & more complicated. They already look more like disposable play stations...

Don't you guys feel sometimes like fighting a lost battle?
I mean, most people use Windows not cause it's "the best there it is" or the most efficient, but cause is the most widespread.
There are other much better OS's but they don't seem to spread enough.

So it's more or less the same with the EV's. Don't expect the best to win.
( Well I hope it does...but)

Batteries are known and easily handled by people, "low voltage" electricity is known too...and in general not very potentialy dangerous
 
As far as hybrids go, I like this idea: Series Hybrid

It opens up a lot of possibilities for the type of engine you can use, as the engine doesn't directly drive the vehicle, and also allows you to drive long distances if you have to. You also don't need a complicated gearbox or transmission, which saves weight.

So a lot of pollution can be saved by optimizing the engine for that one specific task.
 
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