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ICASA ADSL Draft Regulations
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Albereth
Honorary Master
I disagree with Rodent about the draft. I believe that simplicity is what makes it so powerful. Whilst he is no doubt correct in stating that Telkom would try and argue all of the points, the fact that they are so straightforward means that any person sitting in judgement of the arguements would have no difficulty in understanding what is required.
Simply, you will install, not charge the ridiculous access fee for the line, and will play open cards on contention ratios and speeds - and while you are about it don't be stupid with the caps. Vat so!
Where I think that things should be beefed up is around a statement as to what the fees are, what the wholesale rates are, and what penalties will be enforced should there be non-compliance. State the R90 line rental, R400 installation, and the R300 ISP fees now. (Or whatever they are). Also state that the wholesale fees are 0-100GB = R100K, 100-200GB = R185K, etc. You don't need to show what each ISP is paying.
Simply, you will install, not charge the ridiculous access fee for the line, and will play open cards on contention ratios and speeds - and while you are about it don't be stupid with the caps. Vat so!
Where I think that things should be beefed up is around a statement as to what the fees are, what the wholesale rates are, and what penalties will be enforced should there be non-compliance. State the R90 line rental, R400 installation, and the R300 ISP fees now. (Or whatever they are). Also state that the wholesale fees are 0-100GB = R100K, 100-200GB = R185K, etc. You don't need to show what each ISP is paying.
gbos
Member
No IP reset??
Isn't the IP reset every 24h needed to determine how much data was downloaded in one day. Ive logged into my account late at night and started downloading past 0h00, when i ended my session later the MBs downloaded counted towards the day the session started.
So static IP addresses is only feasible on large or uncapped accounts. Correct me if I'm wrong??
Hope that the draft gets implemented. Maybe this will be reflected in January or new year pricing.
Isn't the IP reset every 24h needed to determine how much data was downloaded in one day. Ive logged into my account late at night and started downloading past 0h00, when i ended my session later the MBs downloaded counted towards the day the session started.
So static IP addresses is only feasible on large or uncapped accounts. Correct me if I'm wrong??
Hope that the draft gets implemented. Maybe this will be reflected in January or new year pricing.
ettubrute
Expert Member
@gbos: If the ISP's would use the correct software/hardware, it would not be necessary to reset a connection to determine the amount of data transferred...
Debbie
Banned
What is important now is for people to comment on this, whatever your opinion.
warichard
Well-Known Member
Interesting proposals there (lets remember, until anything gets agreed upon these are just that - proposals). Unfortunately it's obvious to anyone that Telkom will dispute just about every point here. Let me try and see if I can break it down from our perspective:
2.4) This is already happening. What has to be addressed is the rate at which ISP's purchase GB's wholesale. It's at least 10x more expensive than it should be.
2.5) They're going to have to give us a clear route in which to address these kinds of issues, the less red tape the better.
3.2) Telkom can argue that with their new pricing this is already taking place - as is demonstrated by ourselves and other ISP's who do "prepaid" systems.
3.3) They'll have to indicate what they mean by "at all times". If they imply realtime stats it's unfortunately at the moment just not possible. Otherwise this is already happening.
3.4) I'm all for this. However from a technical standpoint I don't know how Telkom is going to pull it off. Also this largely depends on what 10GB is going to cost, because if it's 10GB at what it currently costs that blows that idea out of the water - also Telkom can argue that they provide unlimited bandwidth @ XYZ rand per GB and it's up to the ISP's themselves to set the cap limits (even though from a cost perspective it's stupid to offer anything higher than 10GB). A standard scapegoat response.
3.7) That's going to be an incredibly tough one for Telkom to pull off, given their lack of manpower.
4) I'm all for this, but don't expect those guarantees to be very high. Such is the way contended services function. I would expect that dialup speeds would be the bare minimum one should be guaranteed.
5) Sounds good, but a lack of shaping on such a wide scale would have a hugely negative effect on the SAIX network for *all* users.
6) That's definitely needed from a consumer perspective.
7) Unfortunately at the moment to do proper accounting we *need* a 24 hour reset (at a bare minimum). Until we start receiving realtime stats this is an impossible requirement to meet.
8) SLA's are important, both for the end user and for us as an ISP. Telkom should be providing both the user and the access provider with a relevant SLA indicating the service they guarantee to the user, and various courses of action should that SLA not be met.
2.4) This is already happening. What has to be addressed is the rate at which ISP's purchase GB's wholesale. It's at least 10x more expensive than it should be.
2.5) They're going to have to give us a clear route in which to address these kinds of issues, the less red tape the better.
3.2) Telkom can argue that with their new pricing this is already taking place - as is demonstrated by ourselves and other ISP's who do "prepaid" systems.
3.3) They'll have to indicate what they mean by "at all times". If they imply realtime stats it's unfortunately at the moment just not possible. Otherwise this is already happening.
3.4) I'm all for this. However from a technical standpoint I don't know how Telkom is going to pull it off. Also this largely depends on what 10GB is going to cost, because if it's 10GB at what it currently costs that blows that idea out of the water - also Telkom can argue that they provide unlimited bandwidth @ XYZ rand per GB and it's up to the ISP's themselves to set the cap limits (even though from a cost perspective it's stupid to offer anything higher than 10GB). A standard scapegoat response.
3.7) That's going to be an incredibly tough one for Telkom to pull off, given their lack of manpower.
4) I'm all for this, but don't expect those guarantees to be very high. Such is the way contended services function. I would expect that dialup speeds would be the bare minimum one should be guaranteed.
5) Sounds good, but a lack of shaping on such a wide scale would have a hugely negative effect on the SAIX network for *all* users.
6) That's definitely needed from a consumer perspective.
7) Unfortunately at the moment to do proper accounting we *need* a 24 hour reset (at a bare minimum). Until we start receiving realtime stats this is an impossible requirement to meet.
8) SLA's are important, both for the end user and for us as an ISP. Telkom should be providing both the user and the access provider with a relevant SLA indicating the service they guarantee to the user, and various courses of action should that SLA not be met.
TheRoDent
Cool Ideas Rep
The first portion of the draft is fairly clear, but let me pull out problem no 1, of the regulation.
"3.4 Local bandwidth usage shall not be subject to the cap. The cap shall be increased to a minimum level of 10Gigabytes (GB) per month."
What is local traffic defined as? Local traffic on the operators' backbone? Or national traffic amongst all *.za ISP's? What is the exact definition of the word "cap" being used here? It's not even listed in the terminology. Does this apply to the reseller ISP, or to Telkom?
This is but one paragraph where there there are so many holes it can take lawyers a few months to discuss, just this one paragraph.
"3.4 Local bandwidth usage shall not be subject to the cap. The cap shall be increased to a minimum level of 10Gigabytes (GB) per month."
What is local traffic defined as? Local traffic on the operators' backbone? Or national traffic amongst all *.za ISP's? What is the exact definition of the word "cap" being used here? It's not even listed in the terminology. Does this apply to the reseller ISP, or to Telkom?
This is but one paragraph where there there are so many holes it can take lawyers a few months to discuss, just this one paragraph.
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Traffic shaping?
Paragraph 5 states: "Network operators shall charge subscribers only according to the throughput speed provided to the subscribers. There shall be no distinction in respect of cost and priority of customer's service over others within the same ADSL service".
I think that this is a critical paragraph and needs to be elaborated on. Is ICASA's intention to do away with traffic shaping? If so, then it needs to be stated unequivocally.
I totally agree that one should be paying only for the throughput of a specific connection, and the shaped and unshaped distinction should be scrapped. Telkom can rather put their energies into providing more bandwidth in total than tweaking port priorities. They will also need to jack up their installation staff to meet the 14 day requirement.
Dr David Reed (www.reed.com) states that the criteron should in fact be latency, not throughput. A low-latency connection is both low-contention and high throughput and vise versa.
Paragraph 5 states: "Network operators shall charge subscribers only according to the throughput speed provided to the subscribers. There shall be no distinction in respect of cost and priority of customer's service over others within the same ADSL service".
I think that this is a critical paragraph and needs to be elaborated on. Is ICASA's intention to do away with traffic shaping? If so, then it needs to be stated unequivocally.
I totally agree that one should be paying only for the throughput of a specific connection, and the shaped and unshaped distinction should be scrapped. Telkom can rather put their energies into providing more bandwidth in total than tweaking port priorities. They will also need to jack up their installation staff to meet the 14 day requirement.
Dr David Reed (www.reed.com) states that the criteron should in fact be latency, not throughput. A low-latency connection is both low-contention and high throughput and vise versa.
It might not be the most water tight draft but the important factor here. 10 GB international cap is not to shabby considering that local content provisioning will now be unlimited. Man I really want to see those contention ratios 
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riggs_9mmp
Well-Known Member
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ic said:
I think we should pull the deadline to 15 December 2005. Get it done now, if the deadline is extended Telkom and ICASA will have the breathing room they're bargaining for.
Albereth
Honorary Master
I don't buy this issue that Telkom doesn't have enough manpower to do the 14 day installation. What is to install? The copper wire is already in your house. Okay, a techie must sit at the exchange and plug the other end of the wire in to the DSLAM. You can buy your own router and with a few simple instrucutions you should be able to set it up yourself. If you need the super deluxe installation service, pay for it and Telkom could arrange for places like Nerds to be able to installations to. Or Telkom could stop retrenching everyone and his dog - particularly as it is the dog that knows how it all works.
Who came and installed dial up connectivity to the internet in your house? I'd say those early days of internet were a lot more complicated than today and we managed. That's the trouble with the youth today, try and tell them anything and they drive over you in their sportscars.
Who came and installed dial up connectivity to the internet in your house? I'd say those early days of internet were a lot more complicated than today and we managed. That's the trouble with the youth today, try and tell them anything and they drive over you in their sportscars.
brucel
Well-Known Member
At least this is out in the open, now comes what actually happens? Telkom. The wheel is turning.....
3 pages of large font draft regulations is all they could muster at ICASA?
Agreed! This is why I am of the opinion that ICASA and Telkom shared ideas... This is not iron clad draft regulations binding Telkom down at all. It's more like a very big ballpark for Telkom to play in...
Nope, I am affraid I am very disappointed. I am not going to be suckered into partying all night long just because ICASA graced us with shoddy draft regulations. I agree. How many months and 3 pages of large font draft legislation is all they could muster???!!!???
Nah! No thanks!
Excuse the lack of trust but IMO Telkom was there holding their hands all the way!
TheRoDent said:
Agreed! This is why I am of the opinion that ICASA and Telkom shared ideas... This is not iron clad draft regulations binding Telkom down at all. It's more like a very big ballpark for Telkom to play in...
Nope, I am affraid I am very disappointed. I am not going to be suckered into partying all night long just because ICASA graced us with shoddy draft regulations. I agree. How many months and 3 pages of large font draft legislation is all they could muster???!!!???
Nah! No thanks!
Excuse the lack of trust but IMO Telkom was there holding their hands all the way!
Lord Anubis
Expert Member
Will 10 Gig be enough ??
A few years ago I had a webpage (intl) it was more of a blog but was intended as a Resource for downloadable industrial manufacturing standards. It had a visitors function almost something like a forum but not quite as user friendly. I was amazaed at how much traffic I got in a day (about 700 hits). I was just as amazed at how much Gigs it chewed up. After a month I had used about 7 Gigs...and by the way this was pre ISDN or ADSL era (56K modem days). Eventually my interest in the project became less as I soon realized that the millions to be made on the web would cost me millions in line costs and working from home was but a dream..
So what is enough ?? 10 Gig, 20, 30, 50...100 ??
A few years ago I had a webpage (intl) it was more of a blog but was intended as a Resource for downloadable industrial manufacturing standards. It had a visitors function almost something like a forum but not quite as user friendly. I was amazaed at how much traffic I got in a day (about 700 hits). I was just as amazed at how much Gigs it chewed up. After a month I had used about 7 Gigs...and by the way this was pre ISDN or ADSL era (56K modem days). Eventually my interest in the project became less as I soon realized that the millions to be made on the web would cost me millions in line costs and working from home was but a dream..
So what is enough ?? 10 Gig, 20, 30, 50...100 ??
Its the most unrealistic, badly researched,
typically short sighted, load of donkey droppings
I've read in a while.
They aren't addressing the problem.
That Telkoms monopoly of fixed lines is causing the
high cost of international bandwidth and they are
abusing their monopoly by being an ISP and NO.
It will never come into effect because its dumb...
Its a pipe dream, but its bollocks
typically short sighted, load of donkey droppings
I've read in a while.
They aren't addressing the problem.
That Telkoms monopoly of fixed lines is causing the
high cost of international bandwidth and they are
abusing their monopoly by being an ISP and NO.
It will never come into effect because its dumb...
Its a pipe dream, but its bollocks
ernstn
Expert Member
I have read them and found nothing that remotely looks like it has any substance whatsoever, because no costs are included. Telkom's new policy introduced in November could be construed as falling in line with these regulations ie It is not them disconnecting anymore, it is the ISP. Yes 10 gbytes are about the only substantiating measurement included, but once again, no pricing. So after this becomes law, none of us will be able to afford broadband anymore, because the 10gbyte minimum will be sold for R800 for example. At least it puts a spanner up MWEBS rubbish, but I think careful preparation are needed for January. Once again, like with the previous round, ICASA sat on their a**sses and did nothing and now suddenly things have to be done very quickly. Why public submissions again?
Overall I think that this is a pathetic report and the persons responsible should be fired!
Overall I think that this is a pathetic report and the persons responsible should be fired!
antowan said:
Paragraph 2.5 gives ICASA the final say in setting wholesale rates.
I don't think that it's possible to put actual numbers into regulations. But there should be a ceiling on markup of the raw cost of moving around packets of data.
The actual costs of providing an ADSL service of say 30Gb at 512k/256k speeds might well be higher in South Africa than say the U.K. Telkom should be allowed to make a profit comparable to other Telcos, but of course ICASA should, in theory, be preventing them from charging excessive rates. Not having access to the figures, we can only compare what we pay to similar services elsewhere in the world, and by that standard, Telkom rates are excessive.
It will be interesting to see what the installation cost of ADSL will jump to if the draft regulations are implemented. That will give an indication of the actual cost of providing the infrastructure for a average ADSL connection.
ettubrute
Expert Member
Quite right! But a "small" telco like Telscum should not be able to earn better profits than BT!vbtechie said:
HOLD THE BUS!!!
Don't know if somebody already mentioned it but look at section 8 subsection ix: wich says the maximum UPLOAD speed will be LIMITED at 384 kbps. most countries give upload of 512 if I remember correctly?
Don't know if somebody already mentioned it but look at section 8 subsection ix: wich says the maximum UPLOAD speed will be LIMITED at 384 kbps. most countries give upload of 512 if I remember correctly?