ICASA ADSL Draft Regulations

[Karnaugh]

Your argument is based on the assumption that competition will be introduced. In the absence of competition (like with a legally protected monopoly) strong regulation is the only way to ensure that consumers are protected.

Do you suggest that we just sit back and hope for the best?

Whilst Telkom still have monopoly controll, and are *the* only infrastructure do you suggest that we destroy them and force them to take what will ultimately be devastating action?

What should happen if Telkom were to throw in the towl at the stage due to being forced to run below economic proffit? What if they cancel ADSL? These are not things to say "Oh you're just letting Telkom bully us", it's reality and it's a fact. These kinds of regulations are flawed and don't prevent Telkom from doing whatever else they can to maintain their proffit. What now? We pay R6000 up front for a year and ISP's get shagged to death on IPC costs? These are damaging actions, and you'll witness the results first hand - and you will have only yourself to blame.

 

[antowan]

Lets think, are offshore investors going to be happy about these regulations? No. Are they going to be interested in Telkom or any other telecommunications company that has these regulations forced on them? Unlikely because they drastically damage the profitability of these companies. How exactly is that good for our economy?

Well firstly offshore investors are good for the economy if for the right reasons. They are only interested in Telkom because they can make a killing. If however they make a killing because local consumers are forced to suffer, surely you can see the troubling aspect of this. You also have to remember that offshore investors take money from the country every time they get a dividend thus this is not exactly the kind of investment we are talking about.

The main reason companies list on stock exchanges is to get investors/shareholders to buy bits of the company in the form of shares to generate a load of capital that can be used for investment in company assests that there would usually never have been enough cash for. Telkom never invested the way a normal company would for instance because it didn't have to. It actually lost customers because it shrunk its telephony business.

This is money for nothing with no clear advantage to South Africa. You are defending the indefencable Karnaugh.

We need open competition. We all agree on that, but until then we need regulation.

 

[martin]

Whilst Telkom still have monopoly controll, and are *the* only infrastructure do you suggest that we destroy them and force them to take what will ultimately be devastating action?

What should happen if Telkom were to throw in the towl at the stage due to being forced to run below economic proffit? What if they cancel ADSL? These are not things to say "Oh you're just letting Telkom bully us", it's reality and it's a fact. These kinds of regulations are flawed and don't prevent Telkom from doing whatever else they can to maintain their proffit. What now? We pay R6000 up front for a year and ISP's get shagged to death on IPC costs? These are damaging actions, and you'll witness the results first hand - and you will have only yourself to blame.

Telkom will no doubt fight every single proposal tooth and nail but they will never in a million years simply cancel ADSL. I'm willing to wager a lot of money on that.

 

[antowan]

Responding to an obvious attack against rpm - based no less on draft regulations that ICASA released - rpm did not write the draft regulations - ICASA did write the draft ADSL regs, and that is where criticism should be levelled - at ICASA - not at rpm.

Anyways, let's let that water pass under the bridge - it is detracting from the purpose and subject of this thread, which is ICASA's draft ADSL regulations...

I think BTTB was refering to Karnaugh IC.

 

[jamieb]

Karnaugh

With respect, your argument is completely unfounded. Telkom is making R6 billion rand profit ??? did you hear that? YES THAT'S SIX BILLION RAND PROFIT.

Most businesses of Telkom's size, when entering into a new market, will be forced to invest for a period of time, while the market obtains critical mass. Take a look at Ebay... they waited five years before they were profitable.

Internet penetration in SA has come to a standstill due to Telkom's greedy and exhorbitant pricing policies. The ironic thing is that if they had actually lowered broadband prices on their own accord, they probably would be making a lot more money than they are now.

 

[Daaru]

Is it not a coincedence that the draft which looked rushed, in some peoples words, comes days after the suspension of ICASA CEO?

Thats Exactly what I'm thinking. Higher powers that be?
Also 2 people from DoC being suspended? I'm praying that 1 is Ivy. But the world was purposefully not made perfect. Guess this gives her a fighting chance.

 

[Karnaugh]

It's called economies of scale Karnaugh. Currently SAIX might make R100 p/m per subscriber.... (100 000 subscribers = R10 000 000 p/m)

They are now forced to drop their profits to R20 p/m p/s which in turn causes millions of new subscribers... (1 000 000 subscribers = R20 000 000p/m)

Wow now someone is lecturing economies of scale to me.
Did you forget the fact that economics involves finite resources vurses infinite consumer demands?
1 000 000 subscribers = 512Gbps of network throughput, unless you're suggesting that Telkom don't expand their network to cater for these new customers.

 

[antowan]

Whilst Telkom still have monopoly controll, and are *the* only infrastructure do you suggest that we destroy them and force them to take what will ultimately be devastating action?

What should happen if Telkom were to throw in the towl at the stage due to being forced to run below economic proffit? What if they cancel ADSL? These are not things to say "Oh you're just letting Telkom bully us", it's reality and it's a fact. These kinds of regulations are flawed and don't prevent Telkom from doing whatever else they can to maintain their proffit. What now? We pay R6000 up front for a year and ISP's get shagged to death on IPC costs? These are damaging actions, and you'll witness the results first hand - and you will have only yourself to blame.

This cannot happen if there is proper regulation Karnaugh. And should Telkom go down this road, all government really has to do to slap this retarded company on the wrist is give it proper competition. Competition is the answer to all our problems, but until then we cannot expect the consumers to be raped like this anymore.

Your arguments have no grounds Karnaugh...

Didn't you admit to be working for Telkom a while ago? If I remember correctly you do and then I can understand where you are coming from. I do however know people working at Telkom who have a little more backbone than that... Come on man, stand tall and stand proud for your country! The current telecoms situation is all sorts of wrong and you know it.

 

[Daaru]

Please, Karnaugh, drop your agena from this thread, start a new one.

Please lets put this thread back on track.

 

[Karnaugh]

With respect, your argument is completely unfounded. Telkom is making R6 billion rand profit ??? did you hear that? YES THAT'S SIX BILLION RAND PROFIT.

I'm amazed, wow. How much do SASOL make?

What exactly is the annual percentage growth of Telkom? The profit that a company generates means precisely squat, so clearly your arguments are unfounded, and just blatantly bogus and thumb sucked just like everyone else on this forums arguments. Quote me a somebody (as in, the opposite of a nobody [in this case everyone here]) that says that these regulations make economic sense, and are good for business.

 

[antowan]

Wow now someone is lecturing economies of scale to me.
Did you forget the fact that economics involves finite resources vurses infinite consumer demands?
1 000 000 subscribers = 512Gbps of network throughput, unless you're suggesting that Telkom don't expand their network to cater for these new customers.

What do you think is happening elsewhere in the world Karnaugh?

And by the way, network expansion is exactly one of the reasons I mentioned earlier why public listings exist! So there you have it in a nutshell mate...

Google's recent IPO is something you can use as a case study... Go and read...

 

[antowan]

I'm amazed, wow. How much do SASOL make?

What exactly is the annual percentage growth of Telkom? The profit that a company generates means precisely squat, so clearly your arguments are unfounded, and just blatantly bogus and thumb sucked just like everyone else on this forums arguments. Quote me a somebody (as in, the opposite of a nobody [in this case everyone here]) that says that these regulations make economic sense, and are good for business.

WTF are you on about Karnaugh?

 

[Karnaugh]

What do you think is happening elsewhere in the world Karnaugh?

And by the way, network expansion is exactly one of the reasons I mentioned earlier why public listings exist!

Great scott, you have me stummped. I don't know, perhaps everywhere else in the world with terrabit backbones has competition!

 

[antowan]

And you're an idiot - that seems to be everyone's default response to lack of agreement. I answered his question.

Yes, if you don't know what you're talking about and wash cars for a living then shut up and wait before you break things.

Do you think car washers can afford ADSL Karnaugh? I don't know where you came from with this last post but anyway, lets roll with it. In forward thinking overseas nations, lower income people can also get Internet. This is not the case in SA though. Just thought I would point that out to you.

 

[antowan]

Great scott, you have me stummped. I don't know, perhaps everywhere else in the world with terrabit backbones has competition!

Indeed. Now we just have to get you to ask yourself why we don't have that yet? Competition and ultra high speed intl links...

Why Karnaugh? Perhaps because there is no insentive for investments because Telkom is already raking it in?

 

[Vrotappel]

Great news that the draft regulations have finally been issued. Thanks myadsl and all forumites for their great effort. Now we must make sure that the final regulations see the light of day and are as unambiguous as possible.

@ Karnaugh - If this hurts Telkom and they cannot cope - well perhaps it will hasten up the opening of the market and then Telkom can go to hell.

 

[afused]

ISPs better read this draft carefully

Uncapped local sounds great. But will ISPs be able to afford links to peer with each other or will we now get throttled by them.
Since Telkom does not cap but the ISPs sell accounts, is this "cap" issue not applicable to them? It actually means that ICASA now ruled that ISPs can not sell accounts smaller than 10GB else it contravines their statement of 10GB minimum cap.
Telkom mentioned that the average usage is under 3GB per user when the REAL users are taken off. This means we average users will have to pay for GBytes we do not use? why? To make it worse they say no shaping this means that a GB will cost R100 (I think this is what was quoted when Telkom announced the GB tariffs.) Thankyou ICASA but I do not want a 10GB accout @ R100/G.

 

[antowan]

Uncapped local sounds great. But will ISPs be able to afford links to peer with each other or will we now get throttled by them.
Since Telkom does not cap but the ISPs sell accounts, is this "cap" issue not applicable to them? It actually means that ICASA now ruled that ISPs can not sell accounts smaller than 10GB else it contravines their statement of 10GB minimum cap.
Telkom mentioned that the average usage is under 3GB per user when the REAL users are taken off. This means we average users will have to pay for GBytes we do not use? why? To make it worse they say no shaping this means that a GB will cost R100 (I think this is what was quoted when Telkom announced the GB tariffs.) Thankyou ICASA but I do not want a 10GB accout @ R100/G.

This is why you need to make a presentation to ICASA my friend. I am going to be there to tell them exactly what needs to be fixed. The more people do so, the better! This time I am taking my vidcam along! The whole world will see the proseedings.

 

[antowan]

*SIGH*
then we just have a new monopoly *makes sarcastic wanking notions with his hands*

Which part of OPENING THE MARKET don't you get?

 

[jamieb]

Karnaugh

Its unlikely that 1 000 000 subscribers equals 512Gbps of network throughput. Right now the majority of broadband subscribers are early adopters, most of whom, use the Internet heavily. When prices come to down to say R100 for a broadband connection, the vast majority of users will use the Internet for light surfing and email. In any case, assuming we did use 512Gbps of throughput, I am sure that there will be ample incentive for an international player to come in and provide the needed bandwidth at reduced cost. Right now, Telkom is the only company permitted to provide good quality international bandwidth.

In any case, basically the long and the short of it is, if Telkom cannot provide affordable Internet access.. then they must move to Zimbabwe or something. The SA public has had enough of being raped by a company that was setup to serve them in the first place.