ICASA: Your Feedback Needed

[RoosTa]

The problem is this sets a bad vibe for potential competition - why bother if your profits are going to be capped and questioned by ICASA all the time?

Small, price decrease tomorrow - crap service for the rest of your life. I think this is the most obvious trend coming from Telkom, and we already prevented them from doing the most natural thing (retrenching people) - What choices do they have to prevent their growth form slipping? You may cry that they are earning lots of money, but their is some truth behind when they talk about their overall growth.

Competition - bigger market, supply that meets demand etc, everything falls into place.

High prices - more staff, "better" service.
Low prices - less staff, even worse serivce.

Sorry, but I wont support this move... In all fairness, Telkom might not be the most holy of organisations - but what options are you (MyADSL, MaD, RPM, etc) giving them?

If India has done their pricing regulation (dropped prices by 30-75%)successfully, why can't we? It has pushed their telecoms sector way ahead of ours. As I've said we need a change today, 2010 is just around the corner. In the current situation, South Africa will be the laughing stock.

 

[caroper]

The problem is this sets a bad vibe for potential competition - why bother if your profits are going to be capped and questioned by ICASA all the time?

And if they are not questioned by all the time? Another Cartel?

Iburst, Sentech, Telkom
Standard, Absa, Nedbank
Vodacom, Mtn, CelC

All within a few cents of each other, and introducing old technology as if they had invented it. What about car prices, very close locally but way out of line internationally, and we export the dammed things.

Unfortunately, truly independent regulators (with Teeth) are the only thing that can stop corporate greed in this country.

Cheers
Chris

 

[Go†h_Li†e°²]

Name one which banks a high net proffit?

I know of no properly run business that relies on ADSL for connectivity - neither here or anywhere in the world. Its not designed for that.

*koff....koff* i do....i run an internet cafe!!!!!!!!!
Most icafe's world-wide use ADSL!

 

[Karnaugh]

Standard, Absa, Nedbank
Vodacom, Mtn, CelC

I dont understand what those examples have to do with each other - I certainly dont see any monopoly within the banks, and they are just as bad as international banks. We also have some of the lowest cell rates in the world.

All within a few cents of each other, and introducing old technology as if they had invented it. What about car prices, very close locally but way out of line internationally, and we export the dammed things.

Would you like to rather pay UK insurance rates? How about their property costs? All things in context please. Also they have clogged up roads and better public transport, so they have less demand for expensive cars.

Unfortunately, truly independent regulators (with Teeth) are the only thing that can stop corporate greed in this country.

I don't see a single other country out there who have built a successfull free telecomunications market out of regulatory strangeling.

The only greed in this country is the government with their 30% share in Telkoms' back pocket. Try and look at the whole picture.

 

[Karnaugh]

if they behave as a good business should then there shouldn't be any problems

They are behaving like an excellent business. Just buy some shares!

We really should not bring morality into this. It's not girl scouts, its business - plain and simple. I'm certainly not defending their prices, thats for sure - but you have to be realistic and see the situation for what it is.

You want Telkom be good citizens and charge bugger all, and lay big bandwidth pipes to take care of the demand, they start to lose earnings, outside investment see losses in our telecommunications market, the market gets soured for future competitors.

If you want to go live in India, be my guest but I don't think you'll find it all that much of a paradise.

 

[caroper]

I don't see a single other country out there who have built a successfull free telecomunications market out of regulatory strangeling.

The only greed in this country is the government with their 30% share in Telkoms' back pocket. Try and look at the whole picture.

American regulators broke up AT&T
British regulators forced BT to reform
German reulators demanded lower prices.................
Are these not free markes?

Note that I said Independent Regulators (watch Dogs rather) not Government regulations. There I agree with you.
And as for the big picture, that is why I included banks and car companys not just a narrow focus on Telkom.

a duopoly or cartel is just as bad as a monopoly.

 

[Karnaugh]

Sorry, I'm trying to comment on everything, and I missed a few

A quick test would be for Governmint to allow ISP's to peer between themselves, and then see if a price difference actually shows it's head. Maybee the ISP's will be taught a lesson or two, maybee teklom will be exposed.

Is that not deregulation? I don't see why this shouldn't extend to voice services too though. This doesnt help though if the end customer still has to be connected by Telkom lines, the main cost is in international bandwidth (Telkom provisioned) and customer termination (Telkom provisioned).
Whatever Telkom does or doesnt do is of no concequence if we don't need them. There are certain things that would be obvious, if there were competition they would probably have to be forced to peer exchanges with other providers. Much like Microsoft were taken down for making Windows incompatible with rival software, but we are not there yet.

American regulators broke up AT&T
British regulators forced BT to reform
German reulators demanded lower prices.

I don't see these as similar situations to Telkom personaly. BT is still a mess up, ask anyone.
It took almost 50 years for AT&T to end up like it is now, from where it was similar to Telkom through various anti-trust law suits. That doesn't seem like a big success, and if you troll through the history capping their prices didnt play a part at all, and I'm not sure if the american government were the ones forcing them to be the monopoly. And I'd rather not have South Africa run like America thanks.

"Until 1996, telephone services in Germany were provided exclusively by the Deutsche Bundespost or, later, by Deutsche Telekom AG. The Telecommunications Act of that year established the regulatory framework for liberalization of the telephony market as of January 1, 1998"
That looks like liberisation to me. That was not long ago either - and as you say this was apprently successfull.

When I say the big picture, I mean the big picture surrounding Telkoms monopoly and who plays part to it. Duopoly is probably worse than a monopoly, I didn't say I wanted an SNO situation. I want deregulation - or at least liberisation which will activly assist competition, rather than demanding licence fees and strict criteria.

 

[Celemasiko]

Privatisation of the German Telekom was definetely a success. Competition brought low prices and a much better service and of course a higher quality.

German Telekom was just as bad as SA Telkom before 1996.

 

[Karnaugh]

So competition was the answer? I rest my case then...

 

[mithrandi]

American regulators broke up AT&T
British regulators forced BT to reform
German reulators demanded lower prices.................
Are these not free markes?

Uhm, no. If the goverment uses its force monopoly to interfere in the market like this, then obviously they cannot be truly free markets.

Note that I said Independent Regulators (watch Dogs rather) not Government regulations.

How can a regulator be independent? Either they have a government mandate which gives them certain regulatory powers (and then they aren't independent), or they can't actually do anything (and then you can hardly call them regulators).

 

[mithrandi]

The aim is to decrease price tomorrow, after that we could concentrate on a deregulating the market.

But the thing is, nothing anyone does to Telkom short of introducing competition is going to actually cause them to decrease prices. If you force them to price, say, ADSL line rental lower, then they'll merely respond by cutting spending on service / maintenance, or charge more for voice rental, etc. Their responsibility as a corporation is to their shareholders, not the public, and that responsibility is to maximize shareholder return. Thus they will do what any other business does; try to make as much money as they can. ICASA (or whoever else) can't sit around all day trying to figure out ways to make Telkom "behave"; the only people that can do that are actual competitors. After all, it's their *job* to think up ways to make Telkom lose money...

 

[reech]

Karnaugh - I agree with you that competition is the answer, however it's just not going to happen without a certain degree of intervention by ICASA.

If you want to go live in India, be my guest but I don't think you'll find it all that much of a paradise.

aside/ I actually wouldn't mind living in India - I spent 9 months there once - in some senses it is truly a paradise.

 

[Karnaugh]

I dont see what possible intervention ICASA is capable of that could lead to deregulation.

 

[Tinuva]

I have to agree with mithrandi and karnaugh here, I just do not see how ICASA can do anything usefull to make telkom lower their prices. They might have the right to regulate some of their activities, but if I were the owner of telkom, I wouldnt care what icasa told me to do, I would wanna make more money, cause that is what companies do. Competition is all we need, and the only thing that can fix telkom's prices.

 

[[)roi(]]

I have to agree with mithrandi and karnaugh here, I just do not see how ICASA can do anything usefull to make telkom lower their prices. They might have the right to regulate some of their activities, but if I were the owner of telkom, I wouldnt care what icasa told me to do, I would wanna make more money, cause that is what companies do. Competition is all we need, and the only thing that can fix telkom's prices.

ICASA can do a lot but the GOV has to allow it, basically what ICASA is missing is some teeth, dear old Ivy took them away...
Look at India, it is possible: http://www.mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=192350&postcount=41

 

[quik]

How can a regulator be independent? Either they have a government mandate which gives them certain regulatory powers (and then they aren't independent), or they can't actually do anything (and then you can hardly call them regulators).

They can be independant in the sense that they get given a mandate by government to promote fair pricing for instance, after which government is not allowed to further impede progress as they are doing at the moment. Every time ICASA needs to take action they have to contact Idiot Ivy for the "go ahead" which is BS. That makes regulation impossible.

What they need is absolute power to regulate the market as they see fit, maybe with some public and expert opinion playing a role rather than Idiot Ivy's incompetence.

They are behaving like an excellent business. Just buy some shares!

We really should not bring morality into this. It's not girl scouts, its business - plain and simple. I'm certainly not defending their prices, thats for sure - but you have to be realistic and see the situation for what it is.

No offence but I think this is absolute nonsense.. Business is very much social in nature, that is the whole idea of the company. To provide value and input into communities.. else what is the point?? as the company becomes a drain on the economy.

Then there's something that is apparently unheard of in South-Africa, the concept of corporate accountability and ethics. Just look at Telkoms mandate and how they are failing on every single value that THEY have set. You can find it on the Hellkom website. Companies have a responsibility not only to share holders but also to the environment and communities within which they operate. Along with that the customers who provide the means for their ongoing existence.

The current situation in SA is very detrimental as we have a protected private Monopoly... Where else in the world can you find this?

 

[quik]

What is the point of competition if they only form duopolies and ogipolies. You end up with a situation where all you get to choose is who's going to rape you at the end of the month.

 

[Karnaugh]

Business is very much social in nature, that is the whole idea of the company.

No offence, but clearly you've never run one.

I'm sure Microsoft and SCO etc have great social ethics too?

What is the point of competition if they only form duopolies and ogipolies.

Rather unlikely in a free market. Even a single competitor will haggle each other down, I dont see any feasible reason why they wouldnt. A competitor offers it for R2 less than Telkom, Telkom respond by dropping theirs by R4 etc untill it finds some lowest feasible fee (like our Cellular service - there isn't much cheaper they can do it without them selves being raped by Telkom and they are already lower than UK etc)

What they need is absolute power to regulate the market as they see fit

I just find that stupid, to be blunt. What stops ICASA from buying a share in a 'coms provider and screwing everyone else over? Thats not a free market.

 

[bwana]

No offence, but clearly you've never run one.

I'm sure Microsoft and SCO etc have great social ethics too?


Rather unlikely in a free market. Even a single competitor will haggle each other down, I dont see any feasible reason why they wouldnt. A competitor offers it for R2 less than Telkom, Telkom respond by dropping theirs by R4 etc untill it finds some lowest feasible fee (like our Cellular service - there isn't much cheaper they can do it without them selves being raped by Telkom and they are already lower than UK etc)



I just find that stupid, to be blunt. What stops ICASA from buying a share in a 'coms provider and screwing everyone else over? Thats not a free market.

Free market? Where? Certainly not in South Africa and especially not with regard to telecommunications – to believe otherwise is pure naiveté. To think that the cellphone companies couldn’t reduce prices and still remain competitive and profitable is ludicrous. What the actual mark-up on an sms?

Define social ethics? Personally I hate Microsoft but they and in particular Bill Gates donate millions each yearin terms of grants and social programs. Microsoft is also not a South African monopoly. If you don’t like Microsoft you don’t have to use their products. Telkom on the other hand – well I don’t see anyone else running copper to my house.

Its clear that while you’re obviously a diehard capitalist (and no doubt a telkom share holder) your ethos precludes companies benefiting the public if it adversely affects shareholder dividends.

I, on the other hand, actually believe in free market economies and would love to see one develop here. Before that can happen though, ICASA needs to be given some teeth to reign telkom in – unless you think telkom might voluntarily submit to the needs of the people? Give ICASA the power to break up telkom. In the UK Ofcom has a serious arsenal.

 

[Karnaugh]

Free market? Where? Certainly not in South Africa and especially not with regard to telecommunications

*sigh* No, thats why I say it should be deregulated.

your ethos precludes companies benefiting the public if it adversely affects shareholder dividends.

Uh? No, that is just how it works in the real world!

I, on the other hand, actually believe in free market economies

Before that can happen though, ICASA needs to be given some teeth to reign telkom in

How is that a "free market economy" ? A free market economy implies freedom from government regulation..

Thank you for your time. Please take some more to read my previous posts.