Idiotic Free Bandwidth Campaign a SCAM!

[Prometheus]

"You may not attempt to interfere with service to any user, host, or network ("denial of service attacks"). This includes, but is not limited to "flooding" of networks, deliberate attempts to overload a service, and attempts to "crash" a host."

1. There is no attempt to interfere with the service to any user, host or network.
2. There is no deliberate attempt to overload a service or to crash a host.
3. Testing performance does not amount to "flooding" which is anyway undefined.

Please come up with real legal reasons why you think it is illegal. My guess is you haven't even read what is on that site so you don't respond to any of it.

 

[henkk78]

"You may not attempt to interfere with service to any user, host, or network ("denial of service attacks"). This includes, but is not limited to "flooding" of networks, deliberate attempts to overload a service, and attempts to "crash" a host."

1. There is no attempt to interfere with the service to any user, host or network.
2. There is no deliberate attempt to overload a service or to crash a host.
3. Testing performance does not amount to "flooding" which is anyway undefined.

Please come up with real legal reasons why you think it is illegal. My guess is you haven't even read what is on that site so you don't respond to any of it.

I think the legal reasons are clear as in my previous posts.

Prometheus, one last time, please explain how this is going to make bandwidth 'free'? You keep going off on tangents. I think any reasonable person will see it as a deliberate, coordinated attack on Telkom's network and anyone using it who will suffer as a result of a slowed down network.

Mike, you're really making me feel like Joe in this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkEIx0vwHZ8&NR=1

Is it really necessary to explain over and over again the simple logic that:

USING MORE BANDWIDTH WILL NOT MAKE IT FREE!

It will simply cause harm.

 

[AntiThesis]

Henkk if you'll forgive me I won't take your word over everyone else that this may help with the local telecoms situation. Just because you, some random person don't see any particular merit in it doesn't mean it should be axed.

Many of the other campaigns being run and done in SA at the moment might not get the personal Henkk seal of approval but I'm going to damned sure support them if I can. If you hadn't seen any merit in the TAG campaign would you have come on, called everyone idiots and expected us all to go "Oh henkk! Thanks for opening our eyes. Will you dispense more wisdom to us?"

And please, please stop speaking as if you represent every person who hosts local. I host locally and I for one would be more than happy to allow downloading off my site. So please, restrain yourself.

 

[feo]

Well they can't do much about it if everyone participates now can they. They will just have to accept it, face the facts and deal with it or Are they gonna take the entire adsl public to court? All the above is just your standerd BS fair-usage/usage policy.

I have gathered 30 of my friends and we have all decided to to pull more than that. We gonna go all out for the 3GB even if it means a very high once off adsl bill We've spoken to the IT guys at work and they gonna get this going on all our work PC's! We have a 2MB pipe at work at its a saterday so it should be awesom. They pay a fixed amount a month so it won't make a difference to them :mrgreen: I'm stoked for the 30th It's like a public strike/demonstration against Telkoms prices and monopoly. Instead of a street march we gonna march down their ADSL pipes

Well I too am prepared to give up an entire gig or more on this, we really should not be paying for local bandwidth, it's just ridiculous.

 

[henkk78]

Henkk if you'll forgive me I won't take your word over everyone else that this may help with the local telecoms situation. Just because you, some random person don't see any particular merit in it doesn't mean it should be axed.

Many of the other campaigns being run and done in SA at the moment might not get the personal Henkk seal of approval but I'm going to damned sure support them if I can. If you hadn't seen any merit in the TAG campaign would you have come on, called everyone idiots and expected us all to go "Oh henkk! Thanks for opening our eyes. Will you dispense more wisdom to us?"

And please, please stop speaking as if you represent every person who hosts local. I host locally and I for one would be more than happy to allow downloading off my site. So please, restrain yourself.

Once again...

No coherent argument for why we should do this instead of simply chewing bubblegum for free bandwidth.

It will have just as much effect.

Please AntiThesis, try your best to present a simple, straightforward logical argument.

Here's mine:

Using more bandwidth does not lead to free bandwidth.

It's not a personal opinion. But who knows, maybe I am wrong.

But then prove it.

 

[henkk78]

And please, please stop speaking as if you represent every person who hosts local. I host locally and I for one would be more than happy to allow downloading off my site. So please, restrain yourself.

I won't say I represent every person who hosts local. But I do think that all reasonable people hosting local will agree with me insofar as they won't be happy to support a campaign that:

A) causes them harm in the short term
B) has absolutely zero positive effect in the long term.

 

[fbc]

henkk78, I admire the energy and the passion in comments so far.

Earlier in this thread I promised to you to pay out of my own pocket for any additional hosting fees anyone has to pay because of the testing program. I'll restate it again. There will be a page on the FBC web site where you will be able to claim those additional cost soon.

Now let's move on and discuss how we are going to make the campaign a success.

The testing program is going to be designed not to be disruptive. The statistics collected will give us the best picture of what the structure, capacity and capability of the ADSL network is.

Further, it is a grass roots campaign. It is a way that many non tech savvy people can participate in raising awareness of Telkom's disregard for the law. We are not asking for money or for people to picket. Just install a small program on your computer that will use a very small amount of bandwidth on the day that your cap will be resetted.

There is a lot of work that needs to be done: PR, legal, programming, testing alphas and betas.

Please be part of the process and try and help.

 

[feo]

I seriously hope this project makes an impact. I'm gonna spread the word to as many people as I can and I hope other members do the same.

I'm no expert when it comes to networking so I don't really know whether this project will physically do more harm than good but we've sat back for far too long and raising awareness and actually being proactive for a change would definitely be a big step in the right direction.

 

[henkk78]

fbc, what about the 1000s of people hosting locally who won't even know that they've been "hit" by your program?

Also, what will the banking fees be for doing 1000s of small transactions?

I sent you a private message a few hours ago, wherein I offered to be of assistance.

But it will require a better idea than simply downloading extra data from SA websites!

 

[henkk78]

fbc, How about a small program that automatically sends emails to Telkom, ICASA and the Department of communications from 1000s of different people?

The content of the message can be changed by the FBC moderators, and a new email can be sent every few days from ALL the participants.

Each participant can put in their own credentials when they first install.

Whenever a new message is ready to be sent, the participant will be alerted by the program (in the systray), and will have the opportunity to edit the contents of the message.

I'm not saying I've thought this through properly or that I think it's a great idea. But I DO think that:

A) It will have more effect on Telkom's practices.
B) It won't harm people hosting locally
C) It will be cheaper for you and everyone installing it
D) It will have a LONG TERM continuous effect and can be used for other campaigns where the community needs to put pressure on certain corporates or governments.

You could even build an entire Social Network around this, with different Interest Groups setting up different Activist Campaigns.

People who download your program can then simply choose from a list of campaigns they want to subscribe to.

fbc, if you did it THIS way, you could soon be responsible for stopping global warming, genocide in Darfur and world hunger.

 

[Prometheus]

I think the legal reasons are clear as in my previous posts.

Prometheus, one last time, please explain how this is going to make bandwidth 'free'? You keep going off on tangents. I think any reasonable person will see it as a deliberate, coordinated attack on Telkom's network and anyone using it who will suffer as a result of a slowed down network.

Once again I HAVE told you over and over how it CAN make local bandwidth free as have others. You simply are not listening, do not understand engrish, or have a vested interest in high local bandwidth charges, or all of these. Now you keep on asking us how this will work but can't say why it won't and instead reduce it to basic level and go off on tangents as you say by resorting to bubble gum rhetoric. Why don't you for once support what you say. Tell us why it is a virus using the proper definition of virus, why it is an attack using the proper definition of attack, why it won't work instead of turning to chewing bubble gum when it isn't nearly the same thing. You haven't said anything that vaguely makes sense as a logical argument so why should anyone give a damn what you say.

 

[fbc]

henkk78, got the PM now. Thanks for your support! I think that is very constructive.

A few people have sent emails asking how they can support the campaign. I've even had a Telkom employer emailing me. That is great. The success here depends on the cooperation and coordination of everyone with their own skill.

We will need a private online forum to organise this. The problem with a public forum is that it is one can't be frank since everything said here can be used by Telkom.

Here is what I suggest: There is a Members registration page on the FBC web site. Please go there and describe how you can add value and how you can help. Again, no money please. We are looking for PR, legal, programming and people to test the betas. The most pressing thing is to find a programmer. We will probably use an opensource P2P program and bespoke it.

FBC is not going to be registered as a section 21 non-profit. There is no tax or legal benefit in doing so, since we are NOT going to be raising funds.

A CC is going to be registered. I think there can be 10 members in a CC. I'm looking for 10 prominent ITC activist to become members of FBC.

30 June is also just the start. If we don't get any positive result then we going to do the test in July too.

 

[onlyme]

It seems that we are seeing two different sides here and everyone is attacking the one side for no good reason.

Side 1, the average ADSL user, who is being shafted by Telkom for a few hundred rand a month, to whom this campaign seems like a good way to prove to Telskum that they should be given free and unlimited local bandwidth since the argument that the network can not handle it is bull. the fact that Telkom claims they can not differentiate local from international traffic is behind the reason for the local cap is not even being considered here.

Side 2, those of us who run small internet businesses, who are being shafted for thousands of rands every month and only see this campaign as a way of being shafted even more.

Claiming that we (Side 2) do not care, only complain, and are not interested in putting our money where our mouths are is grossly unfair especially taking into account that for most of you (Side 1) this campaign won't cost a cent. And will at worst cause you a few hours of frustration (or maybe satisfaction) if the network does go down, while for those of us earning a living from locally hosted sites stand to lose not only in increased bandwidth use, but also in lost revenue due to possible and certainly unintentional DDOS effects.

But more importantly, this campaign whether it proves Telkoms Network can or can not handle the load will change nothing. Telkom claimed in an article earlier this year (can't fins it now) that the reason that local bandwidth is included in the cap and therefore the reason that local bandwidth is capped is because their systems can not differentiate between local and international.

 

[Prometheus]

A few people have sent emails asking how they can support the campaign. I've even had a Telkom employer emailing me. That is great. The success here depends on the cooperation and coordination of everyone with their own skill.

Is that a Telkom employer or an employee? I just want to be certain on that.

We will need a private online forum to organise this. The problem with a public forum is that it is one can't be frank since everything said here can be used by Telkom.

I don't know how much that will help exactly since Telkom can have their spies even in a private forum. You won't know for sure.

A CC is going to be registered. I think there can be 10 members in a CC. I'm looking for 10 prominent ITC activist to become members of FBC.

I think it can be up to 50 or any reasonable number that makes sense.

 

[henkk78]

Once again I HAVE told you over and over how it CAN make local bandwidth free as have others. You simply are not listening, do not understand engrish, or have a vested interest in high local bandwidth charges, or all of these. Now you keep on asking us how this will work but 1.can't say why it won't and instead reduce it to basic level and go off on tangents as you say by resorting to bubble gum rhetoric. 2.Why don't you for once support what you say. 3.Tell us why it is a virus using the proper definition of virus, 4.why it is an attack using the proper definition of attack, why it won't work instead of turning to chewing bubble gum when it isn't nearly the same thing. 5.You haven't said anything that vaguely makes sense as a logical argument so why should anyone give a damn what you say.

You're right, I don't understand engrish.

Regarding 1 to 4: Please refer to my previous posts.

Regarding 5. Did you not understand the 'basic level' I reduced it to? Does it really not make sense?

 

[Prometheus]

It seems that we are seeing two different sides here and everyone is attacking the one side for no good reason.

Side 1, the average ADSL user, who is being shafted by Telkom for a few hundred rand a month, to whom this campaign seems like a good way to prove to Telskum that they should be given free and unlimited local bandwidth since the argument that the network can not handle it is bull. the fact that Telkom claims they can not differentiate local from international traffic is behind the reason for the local cap is not even being considered here.

Side 2, those of us who run small internet businesses, who are being shafted for thousands of rands every month and only see this campaign as a way of being shafted even more.

Claiming that we (Side 2) do not care, only complain, and are not interested in putting our money where our mouths are is grossly unfair especially taking into account that for most of you (Side 1) this campaign won't cost a cent. And will at worst cause you a few hours of frustration (or maybe satisfaction) if the network does go down, while for those of us earning a living from locally hosted sites stand to lose not only in increased bandwidth use, but also in lost revenue due to possible and certainly unintentional DDOS effects.

But more importantly, this campaign whether it proves Telkoms Network can or can not handle the load will change nothing. Telkom claimed in an article earlier this year (can't fins it now) that the reason that local bandwidth is included in the cap and therefore the reason that local bandwidth is capped is because their systems can not differentiate between local and international.

Telkom have always given bullshit reasons, have never heard of that one but it's bull too. Firstly if I was using adsl I would be on prepaid and would pay for this campaigne. If I was hosting a website locally I would pay for this. So it's not a matter of being insensitive. If you read all my comments you would know that I don't support your site being used without your approval. The people I have a problem with are those that spread false information and can't give reasons other than "using more bandwidth won't make it free". There is no argument, only a statement they think everybody should accept and possibly pushing personal business interests.

 

[Prometheus]

You're right, I don't understand engrish.

Regarding 1 to 4: Please refer to my previous posts.

Regarding 5. Did you not understand the 'basic level' I reduced it to? Does it really not make sense?

You can not support claims you make through 1 to 4. No 5 is completely irrelevant. You can not reduce it to chewing bubble gum because it's much more complex than that. If you think it won't make a difference you must support your statement, I have supported mine, now support yours instead of saying "using more bandwidth won't make it free".

 

[henkk78]

Telkom have always given bullshit reasons, have never heard of that one but it's bull too. Firstly if I was using adsl I would be on prepaid and would pay for this campaigne. If I was hosting a website locally I would pay for this. So it's not a matter of being insensitive. If you read all my comments you would know that I don't support your site being used without your approval. The people I have a problem with are those that spread false information and can't give reasons other than "using more bandwidth won't make it free". There is no argument, only a statement they think everybody should accept and possibly pushing personal business interests.

I think I've made a pretty good argument. (by saying 'using more bandwidth won't make it free')

It's further supported by the fact that you couldn't come up with a counter-argument.

It seems that accusing me of having personal business interests is the best you could come up with.

Please see my earlier idea for a program that will send MASSIVE amounts of email from 1000s of different users in order to put pressure of Telkom.

Or is that also my personal business interests now?

 

[onlyme]

Telkom have always given bullshit reasons, have never heard of that one but it's bull too. Firstly if I was using adsl I would be on prepaid and would pay for this campaigne. If I was hosting a website locally I would pay for this. So it's not a matter of being insensitive. If you read all my comments you would know that I don't support your site being used without your approval. The people I have a problem with are those that spread false information and can't give reasons other than "using more bandwidth won't make it free". There is no argument, only a statement they think everybody should accept and possibly pushing personal business interests.

I agree that the reasons are nothing less than bull, but they are using them regardless, on top of this Telkom already claims that they do not cap local usage, which makes the stated claim of this campaign pointless, since whatever the outcome Telkoms response will either be, "see we told you" or "but we don't cap in any case so whats your point"

 

[acidrain]

They say they dont cap local content but whats the chances of them actually admitting to that. If they want to blame the ISP's for the capping then thats fine but i hope they know that TelkomInternet is one of their companies and im sure you dont get free local downloading with them so essentially they are capping.

I think its a good idea to do this. Might not make a difference one way or the other but would be a good test just for interest sake. Pity im on VC otherwise id be keen as mustard.