Once again thanks for your constant efforts to help us. It will pay off. I am so sure of it that I already made sure I'm using Imagine next month
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Imagine Uncapped Feedback
- Thread starter AmonRe
- Start date
Once again thanks for your constant efforts to help us. It will pay off. I am so sure of it that I already made sure I'm using Imagine next month
ppedrick
Well-Known Member
Btw - reading a few other posts - some users have reported better speeds by getting Telkom to do a port reset.
Contact Telkom on 0800 375 375... has to be worth a try although I'm not sure on the benefits.
Contact Telkom on 0800 375 375... has to be worth a try although I'm not sure on the benefits.
I honestly don't see there being any benefits.... my line has been able to max out on ocassion with Imagine so I know what it is capable of with this account. Just to get all the packets from [-a-] to [-b-] without IS trying to traffic jam me.
bekdik
Honorary Master
ppedrick
Well-Known Member
I think that you've just created a new technical term. You might to trademark it quickly before IS reply to us quoting it as the reason for the account performance! 
I think that you've just created a new technical term. You might to trademark it quickly before IS reply to us quoting it as the reason for the account performance!
And on a sad note..... Steam's completely blocked, by the looks of things.... cannot access via the port range (27030-27040?)
bekdik
Honorary Master
Today's 07:00 log:
Start Time: 07:00:10
Download Speed: 41 KBytes/s
Line Speed: 328 kbits/s
Start Time: 07:00:46
Download Speed: 32 KBytes/s
Line Speed: 256 kbits/s
Start Time: 07:01:15
Download Speed: 31 KBytes/s
Line Speed: 248 kbits/s
Start Time: 07:01:44
Download Speed: 21 KBytes/s
Line Speed: 168 kbits/s
OK, so it's not throttling/shaping/jamming. Then IS would easily be able to explain as to the cause of the instantaneous huge traffic load, sufficient to use 50% of their available bandwidth.
Start Time: 07:00:10
Download Speed: 41 KBytes/s
Line Speed: 328 kbits/s
Start Time: 07:00:46
Download Speed: 32 KBytes/s
Line Speed: 256 kbits/s
Start Time: 07:01:15
Download Speed: 31 KBytes/s
Line Speed: 248 kbits/s
Start Time: 07:01:44
Download Speed: 21 KBytes/s
Line Speed: 168 kbits/s
OK, so it's not throttling/shaping/jamming. Then IS would easily be able to explain as to the cause of the instantaneous huge traffic load, sufficient to use 50% of their available bandwidth.
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I have to agree, 3 nights in a row now, where a "magic switch" seems to be flicked at 00:00 EXACTLY... Unless 50% of IS' network disconnects at EXACTLY 00:00....
Between 00:00 and 06:00 the line speeds are great... 200kbps - 430kbps, but between 18:00 and 23:59, speeds are disgusting, +-20kbps!
Between 00:00 and 06:00 the line speeds are great... 200kbps - 430kbps, but between 18:00 and 23:59, speeds are disgusting, +-20kbps!
ppedrick
Well-Known Member
We sent all of the time/speed info to IS yesterday so we're waiting to hear back. It was not put as accusingly as it could have been to allow them to backout/down and change without losing face. Or at least allow them to come back with other possibilities as it could well not be their system for vaious annoying reasons.
RE: the different areas and speeds - this could be exchange/DSLAM/backhaul issues from Telkom. Also, I'm not knowledgeable enough about IS's network setup and people are likely entering and leaving through different routes blah blah... some could even be going through a combo of satelittle/SAT-3/SEACOM. Again, although the service should be standard across the board, I imagine that they are still trying to level out the service levels for everyone.
Hope that makes sense.
RE: the different areas and speeds - this could be exchange/DSLAM/backhaul issues from Telkom. Also, I'm not knowledgeable enough about IS's network setup and people are likely entering and leaving through different routes blah blah... some could even be going through a combo of satelittle/SAT-3/SEACOM. Again, although the service should be standard across the board, I imagine that they are still trying to level out the service levels for everyone.
Hope that makes sense.
bekdik
Honorary Master
Back to:
Start Time: 13:57:21
Download Speed: 20 KBytes/s
Line Speed: 160 kbits/s
I hope IS get's back soon otherwise I'm out of here. 384 is bad enough, but this is simply ridiculous.
Start Time: 13:57:21
Download Speed: 20 KBytes/s
Line Speed: 160 kbits/s
I hope IS get's back soon otherwise I'm out of here. 384 is bad enough, but this is simply ridiculous.
ppedrick, something I am battling to understand here and its the only thing I havent understood about your feedback.
Why on earth are ISPs like yourselves, not putting more pressure on IS? Sure a meeting here and there, a bunch of info and a "we'll look into it" is all well and good, but how many customers do the ISPs have to lose before they actually start putting REAL pressure on IS? This is going to seriously impact all the ISPs, your supplier is causing you to lose business, yet... You guys dont seem to be really pushing anyone? Is this just the impression I've got? Am I totally wrong here?
Why on earth are ISPs like yourselves, not putting more pressure on IS? Sure a meeting here and there, a bunch of info and a "we'll look into it" is all well and good, but how many customers do the ISPs have to lose before they actually start putting REAL pressure on IS? This is going to seriously impact all the ISPs, your supplier is causing you to lose business, yet... You guys dont seem to be really pushing anyone? Is this just the impression I've got? Am I totally wrong here?
ppedrick
Well-Known Member
You are not wrong at all RG,
In fact, in the meeting last Thrusday, it really did seem as if there we were very few ISPs present who cared about the accounts let alone wanted to sell them. I hope I am very wrong with this but let me explain a little further why I say this:
The 'buying power' that you could wield before this account was introduced was significant with IS. If you were one of their larger ADSL clients buying per GB ADSL, you could purchase at 80% cheaper than a new business entering the market. Crazy I know and it might explain why certain companies always seemed to be able to out price others so easily. However, IS are offering the Uncapped Basics to anyone for a standard 10% profit margin (after VAT).
If you remove that profit margin per GB and make it 'per account' you need to have a hell of a lot of clients to make it worth your while selling ADSL... and most resellers don't have many clients as the market is so small. More importantly, if you have based your business on just reselling then you could be in trouble when 1,000 384k accounts only earns you R16k a month. Although there is nothing wrong with this, to a point, it does seem that the majority of ADSL resellers in this country are glorfied marketing arms and sales companies. But in-turn the political pressure imposed on IS must be significant by those businesses that are large 'just per GB' purchasers.
So therefore I really don't believe that most of the companies want to sell the uncapped as it makes them no money. Also, as most of them ONLY survive on ADSL revenue then they will be looking to IS to provide them with a product that pays. This is where the problem comes in... IS also say that they do not make money on the uncappeds so they don't want to produce them either. Therefore they want to find a 'new' solution that takes the pressure off them as well.
I think that the biggest problem people have now is the same that most have to deal with in the face of a revolution.
Make a change or fight for each other's customers in an every diminishing market share... until most of them fail.
Imagine as a company believe that the 'reasonable ADSL' provision is here to stay. Now I say reasonable instead of uncapped as you do need to allow for differences in extreme usage. However, I personally believe that is based around price and not quality of service. Shown around the world, most ADSL customer have a 'cap' not to stop them using too much, but to differentiate them from the people that want to use more... therefore costing them less. It is this difference that most people haven't concluded here. They just see it as companies imposing caps to stop over-use.
So if reasonable ADSL is here to stay then we all need to re-invent in to lean, mean, decent-service-provision machines. We refuse to enter the new ADSL per GB price wars that have emerged as its pointless losing money at this time. It's also pointless fighting each other for a diminishing userbase when the rest are migrating to MWeb.
So until sense or change occurs in the larger resellers. Or more importantly, IS realise that every new thing they try isn't going to work. Then we are a little stuck.
Not stuck without hope though. As I do believe that the IS Uncapped Basic service will improve and we know that we can survive on the low ADSL margins as we will upsell value added services... once the ADSL service is good enough. Therefore, we believe that once this is all stabilised, we will see our market share increase and also maybe start selling the add-on services to the other resellers directly.
That is also why we're fighting for transparency. This is all going to take time and so we might as well make this market more aware in the interim and play a long-game. Continue to provide a good service. Continue to put pressure on IS untill the ultimate happens. Continue to build and develop out add-on services for the customer.
In fact, in the meeting last Thrusday, it really did seem as if there we were very few ISPs present who cared about the accounts let alone wanted to sell them. I hope I am very wrong with this but let me explain a little further why I say this:
The 'buying power' that you could wield before this account was introduced was significant with IS. If you were one of their larger ADSL clients buying per GB ADSL, you could purchase at 80% cheaper than a new business entering the market. Crazy I know and it might explain why certain companies always seemed to be able to out price others so easily. However, IS are offering the Uncapped Basics to anyone for a standard 10% profit margin (after VAT).
If you remove that profit margin per GB and make it 'per account' you need to have a hell of a lot of clients to make it worth your while selling ADSL... and most resellers don't have many clients as the market is so small. More importantly, if you have based your business on just reselling then you could be in trouble when 1,000 384k accounts only earns you R16k a month. Although there is nothing wrong with this, to a point, it does seem that the majority of ADSL resellers in this country are glorfied marketing arms and sales companies. But in-turn the political pressure imposed on IS must be significant by those businesses that are large 'just per GB' purchasers.
So therefore I really don't believe that most of the companies want to sell the uncapped as it makes them no money. Also, as most of them ONLY survive on ADSL revenue then they will be looking to IS to provide them with a product that pays. This is where the problem comes in... IS also say that they do not make money on the uncappeds so they don't want to produce them either. Therefore they want to find a 'new' solution that takes the pressure off them as well.
I think that the biggest problem people have now is the same that most have to deal with in the face of a revolution.
Make a change or fight for each other's customers in an every diminishing market share... until most of them fail.
Imagine as a company believe that the 'reasonable ADSL' provision is here to stay. Now I say reasonable instead of uncapped as you do need to allow for differences in extreme usage. However, I personally believe that is based around price and not quality of service. Shown around the world, most ADSL customer have a 'cap' not to stop them using too much, but to differentiate them from the people that want to use more... therefore costing them less. It is this difference that most people haven't concluded here. They just see it as companies imposing caps to stop over-use.
So if reasonable ADSL is here to stay then we all need to re-invent in to lean, mean, decent-service-provision machines. We refuse to enter the new ADSL per GB price wars that have emerged as its pointless losing money at this time. It's also pointless fighting each other for a diminishing userbase when the rest are migrating to MWeb.
So until sense or change occurs in the larger resellers. Or more importantly, IS realise that every new thing they try isn't going to work. Then we are a little stuck.
Not stuck without hope though. As I do believe that the IS Uncapped Basic service will improve and we know that we can survive on the low ADSL margins as we will upsell value added services... once the ADSL service is good enough. Therefore, we believe that once this is all stabilised, we will see our market share increase and also maybe start selling the add-on services to the other resellers directly.
That is also why we're fighting for transparency. This is all going to take time and so we might as well make this market more aware in the interim and play a long-game. Continue to provide a good service. Continue to put pressure on IS untill the ultimate happens. Continue to build and develop out add-on services for the customer.
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Thanks ppedrick that makes alot of sense!!! I guess the "balance of power" is all out of whack and that doesn't help anyone!!
ppedrick, why have the ISPs (Imagine specifically) not tried to capture the upper end of the market? I see everyone is VERY competitive on price, trying to undercut each other by R5 or R10 or whatever, why is there no account aimed at people who dont mind paying a bit more, but want the speeds theyre paying for? I would be willing to pay R600 or maybe a bit more for a 4meg account that was semi shaped (unshaped after business hours) and I SERIOUSLY doubt I'm the only 1!!!
ppedrick, why have the ISPs (Imagine specifically) not tried to capture the upper end of the market? I see everyone is VERY competitive on price, trying to undercut each other by R5 or R10 or whatever, why is there no account aimed at people who dont mind paying a bit more, but want the speeds theyre paying for? I would be willing to pay R600 or maybe a bit more for a 4meg account that was semi shaped (unshaped after business hours) and I SERIOUSLY doubt I'm the only 1!!!
bekdik
Honorary Master
@ppedrick
Your comments are well taken, however if one is going to offer a product, it is importent that it is consistently useable, i.e. that the bottom limit is acceptable and useable. In the case of ADSL products, I believe that 384 is a minimum, below which one cannot go and still have a saleable product. If you advertised the product as a 160Kb/s uncapped product do you think anyone would buy it? Would you?
Your comments are well taken, however if one is going to offer a product, it is importent that it is consistently useable, i.e. that the bottom limit is acceptable and useable. In the case of ADSL products, I believe that 384 is a minimum, below which one cannot go and still have a saleable product. If you advertised the product as a 160Kb/s uncapped product do you think anyone would buy it? Would you?
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ppedrick
Well-Known Member
Hey Bekdik
Not at all. I'm a major advocate of unthrottled ADSL, where your exchange distance and line clarity are the only things limiting you. There are a huge number of advantages to it and massive benefits to the market. The 384k comment was purely to visualise the profit margin involved for most companies as this is the most common ADSL account owned by a home user... and why other companeis are loathe to resell them. I want the market and the government comms dept to stop talking and do soemthing about what they've been promising since 1999.
Even at the increased ADSL installation of 11,000 accounts per month (Telkom March 2010) this will see a 2.6% market penetration per year. More importantly 15 years to get just 50% of the country a phone & internet line (11-12% already have). So what the heck are they plannign to do to get EVERYONE online for 2019??
Ask them to waste more time at work? (Boring facts) 600,000 ADSL accounts but 7.5m people online and 2.4m Facebook users in SA... surely a LOT of people are not really doing much work.
Randomguy:
We have been considering, and I was previously modelling, the idea of our own ADSL provision. However the costs are pretty significant and the scale of investment needed to see medium to long-term return in a market as volatile as this is a very high risk. To give you an idea, to be able to service 15,000 4MB ADSL customers you would need in the region of R250m start up and maintenance costs. including a bunch of things, such as marketing etc etc...
Sounds excessive until you know that a SEACOM STM-1 (155mbps) is R15m (incl setup) then the IPC and local would have to be rented and you'd then have to build in a failover system for the international. Which essentially puts the monthly rental on top at R1.8m+ and this will only provision 1,900 4Mbps ADSL accounts running on a 50:1 contention... however you could only really and safetly run 50:1 with 10-15,000 customers and even then it's quite hard.
We had considered the business model to take for investment of around R1bn but to be honest i don't think it's our market when we already have one that should work well.
So essentially we are at the mercy of the Tier 1's and their systems. Again, Things can only get better adn I fully believe they will. However, the business sense unfortunately says play the waiting game... although it does allow you to do whatever it takes to make sure the wait isn't very long!
Not at all. I'm a major advocate of unthrottled ADSL, where your exchange distance and line clarity are the only things limiting you. There are a huge number of advantages to it and massive benefits to the market. The 384k comment was purely to visualise the profit margin involved for most companies as this is the most common ADSL account owned by a home user... and why other companeis are loathe to resell them. I want the market and the government comms dept to stop talking and do soemthing about what they've been promising since 1999.
Even at the increased ADSL installation of 11,000 accounts per month (Telkom March 2010) this will see a 2.6% market penetration per year. More importantly 15 years to get just 50% of the country a phone & internet line (11-12% already have). So what the heck are they plannign to do to get EVERYONE online for 2019??
Ask them to waste more time at work? (Boring facts) 600,000 ADSL accounts but 7.5m people online and 2.4m Facebook users in SA... surely a LOT of people are not really doing much work.
Randomguy:
We have been considering, and I was previously modelling, the idea of our own ADSL provision. However the costs are pretty significant and the scale of investment needed to see medium to long-term return in a market as volatile as this is a very high risk. To give you an idea, to be able to service 15,000 4MB ADSL customers you would need in the region of R250m start up and maintenance costs. including a bunch of things, such as marketing etc etc...
Sounds excessive until you know that a SEACOM STM-1 (155mbps) is R15m (incl setup) then the IPC and local would have to be rented and you'd then have to build in a failover system for the international. Which essentially puts the monthly rental on top at R1.8m+ and this will only provision 1,900 4Mbps ADSL accounts running on a 50:1 contention... however you could only really and safetly run 50:1 with 10-15,000 customers and even then it's quite hard.
We had considered the business model to take for investment of around R1bn but to be honest i don't think it's our market when we already have one that should work well.
So essentially we are at the mercy of the Tier 1's and their systems. Again, Things can only get better adn I fully believe they will. However, the business sense unfortunately says play the waiting game... although it does allow you to do whatever it takes to make sure the wait isn't very long!
Once again ppedrick, thanks for answering the questions, it all makes good sense
Perhaps then the "higher end user" idea is worth mentioning to IS? Surely they could create an account that you (and others) could re-sell??
Perhaps then the "higher end user" idea is worth mentioning to IS? Surely they could create an account that you (and others) could re-sell??