Iran - The War Begins (article)

[marine1]

Alan its a waste of time arguing with him. He just doesnt want to see the reality of whats really going on there. I asked him to go and see for himself but for his reasons he doesn't want to. Maybe he is not allowed there. We all know there are many Al Q people living in SA.

 

[LoneGunman]

I'd recommend watching the three part BBC series 'The Power of Nightmares' - which demonstrates that
a) the CIA created what's called 'Al Qeada'
b) 'Al Qeada' per se, doesn't exist - its a boogeyman created and maintained
by various nations intelligence services, to act as a convenient enemy to rattle the cages of the public,
and cause massive funding and profits for military contractors.
c) read british MP Robin Cook on Al Qeada
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1523838,00.html
"Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organisation would turn its attention to the west."

and

Former French Military Intelligence official Pierre Henry Bunel expands , noting that "Al-Qaeda," was an early form of intranet, which was used by Islamic nations and influential families to communicate with each other. It was also used by the "American agent," Osama bin Laden to send coded or covert messages back to his CIA handlers from Afghanistan.
read: AL QEADA - THE DATABASE: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=BUN20051120&articleId=1291

It's worthy to conclude with Bunel's assertion that "Al-Qaeda" as an organization is about as genuine as George W. Bush's Texas brush clearing cowboy image.

"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the 'devil' only in order to drive the 'TV watcher' to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the US and the lobbyists for the US war on terrorism are only interested in making money."

Case closed, if you don't know anything about modern politics, or current affairs, except what you soak up from the TV set or innate prejudice,
you really shouldn't try arguing political science issues.

 

[marine1]

Did someone say conspiracy theory ?

 

[Alan]

That post must have taken hours !

It takes a while. I normally just do two or three answers then do something else then come back and do two more. So on and so on.

Alan its a waste of time arguing with him. He just doesnt want to see the reality of whats really going on there. I asked him to go and see for himself but for his reasons he doesn't want to. Maybe he is not allowed there. We all know there are many Al Q people living in SA.

As I said before. I'm not trying to change his mind. Merely stating that I disagree with him and the reasons why. So other people get to see the other side.

Al Q is here. Maybe he is one. Should I be afraid?

I'd recommend watching the three part BBC series 'The Power of Nightmares' - which demonstrates that
a) the CIA created what's called 'Al Qeada'
b) 'Al Qeada' per se, doesn't exist - its a boogeyman created and maintained
by various nations intelligence services, to act as a convenient enemy to rattle the cages of the public,
and cause massive funding and profits for military contractors.
c) read british MP Robin Cook on Al Qeada
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1523838,00.html
"Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organisation would turn its attention to the west."

and

Former French Military Intelligence official Pierre Henry Bunel expands , noting that "Al-Qaeda," was an early form of intranet, which was used by Islamic nations and influential families to communicate with each other. It was also used by the "American agent," Osama bin Laden to send coded or covert messages back to his CIA handlers from Afghanistan.
read: AL QEADA - THE DATABASE: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=BUN20051120&articleId=1291

It's worthy to conclude with Bunel's assertion that "Al-Qaeda" as an organization is about as genuine as George W. Bush's Texas brush clearing cowboy image.

"The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the 'devil' only in order to drive the 'TV watcher' to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the US and the lobbyists for the US war on terrorism are only interested in making money."

Case closed, if you don't know anything about modern politics, or current affairs, except what you soak up from the TV set or innate prejudice,
you really shouldn't try arguing political science issues.

You are brave. Living in a police state run by fascists and yet you fearlessly continue to post. I hope you are armed and double check before opening your front door or going out. Those middle aged white Christian men are surely after you by now. Don't worry they're easy to spot. They no doubt have dark glasses and wear suites even on weekends and at night. Bit like Men In Black Without the "Black" dude of course.

 

[marine1]

No what I mean is that you have been trying to explain this to him for days. He is not going to get it. I agree 100% with all your statements.

 

[Xarog]

Really? Are you talking about the "bombing" in 1998?

Sorry, I confused Sudan with Somalia.

Ah and the amassing hostile armies on their border had nothing to do with it. What about the other wars. Did they start them as well?

Yeah, not possible that the moving of troops was the result of receiving intelligence that Israel was about to attack, right?

Well by your definition almost every developed nation on earth is a "rogue nation"

Not at all.

There was no "attack" to face had it not been for Hezbollah's actions

Hypocrisy again. Israel is allowed to go to war because some of its citizens were captured, but the reverse is not true, according to you.

Here you go with the whole "Christian" thing again.

Nope.

What has that got to do with Hezbollah, Israel and Iran.

Maybe you should inform yourself a bit better. There's a large group of Christians in Lebanon just like there are Sunnis and Shiites, and none of the three sects are particularly trustful of the others.

Well it's far more democratic than Hezbollah.

Let's see - Hezbollah is in the government.... so, the government is more democratic than itself? Bwahahaha!

Proof please?

From : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon

As such, high-ranking offices in the government are reserved for members of specific religious groups. The President, for example, has to be a Maronite Catholic Christian, the Prime Minister a Sunni Muslim, the Deputy Prime Minister an Orthodox Christian, and the Speaker of the Parliament a Shi’a Muslim.

You still haven't answered why Irsael "invaded" in the first place?

Apparently because the PLO had established a base there.

Why weren't these bunkers and stockpiles built along the Syrian border then?

Ask Hezbollah.

The U.S have restrained themselves incredibly in Iraq. A more "human" war has never been fought before.

Define "human". And I guess you're ignoring things like Fallujah.

They could strat bomb whole cities into the ground if they wanted to.

And only an idiot would think that would be effective at the kind of resistance that the occupation forces are currently facing.

You claim they want oil but anybody can see it won't work so to cover that you write off the most powerfull people on earth as idiots.

Strawman.

Pity you can't reach the lofy heights that even an idiot can.

It's not a pity if it isn't true.

Islamic fundamentalist State with nukes +Islamic terrorists = Big problem.

Yeah, remind me why no one's b!tching about Pakistan? Also, since when is Syria an islamic state at all?

So why these "you tell me" and "I dunno" replies then.

Oh, so asking you to provide proof for your POV is now to be regarded as being ill informed.

It is the source.

Bullsh!t. The west just likes to think that so that it can delude itself and its population into justifying the violence it perpetrates in the middle east.

Not every muslim wants the destruction of Israel and to live under strict and distorted interpretations of Islam.

Indeed. And not every source of violence from a muslim in the middle east is caused by someone who wants to live under those strict and distorted interpretations of Islam. Admittedly many of them want to see the destruction of the state of Israel, but considering what a racist state it is, I can't really blame them.

And why, btw, is it tolerable for Israel to be a religious state that discriminates against everyone not of the chosen religion, but not for anyone else?

You can't seem to tell the difference between a ordinary Muslim and an extremist.

No, that's your shortcoming.

You telling me Al Jazeera could not get the speech through their own sources but have to rely on "western' news agencies.

Not at all.

So why did you compare that scenario with the U.S suppling Israel with weapons. If you don't see any difference then surely Hezbollah has no right to "invade" America then?

I don't believe Hezbollah has the right to invade America. I don't believe America has the right to invade Lebanon to get at Hezbollah. You're the one who stated that America has the right to go to war with Hezbollah, and I responded by saying that by that standard Hezbollah has the same right. That does not imply that I support either side's right to go to war.

And the actual point was that if supplying weapons is enough of a standard to go to war (with Iran), then each country in the middle east that has been in a war with Israel has the right to invade America because America supplied them with weapons.

I really think you should give spurious arguments like this a rest. I don't enjoy having to sift through pages of posts only to discover that my argument is being falsely rufuted with pure drivvel.

 

[marine1]

Sorry, I confused Sudan with Somalia.

Hmm you should check the facts first.

Hypocrisy again. Israel is allowed to go to war because some of its citizens were captured, but the reverse is not true, according to you.

When the hell did Israel ever go UNPROVOKED into their area and capture their terrorist brothers?
Best thing is Israel being so small is able to kick some a$$

 

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

Lone Gunman - go read the book: Inside the Global Jihad: How I infiltrated Al-Qaeda and abandoned by Western Intelligence. Maybe then you'll realise that all "your" websites you quote from are usual liberal clip clap. No doubt though, you'll say it was written by a Western intelligence official...however he gives intimate details of the training that goes on in the camps (i.e. he would've had to experience and be in the camps).

 

[Amerikanse]

why

Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organisation would turn its attention to the west.

Why should it have? He was happy. He had his AK's and his stingers. Why would the US think a local warlord in the boondocks of Afghanistan come after the west for being...western.
I don't think you understand--what is Radical Islam? Radical Islam was created by Bin Laden's mentor (name escapes me at the moment). Bin Laen got into more as a political game, but even that was so that he could establish his Caliphate.
The CIA may have mismanaged the situation in the ME, but Al-qaeda was its own animal, an animal built on Radical Islam and dedicated to establishing it across the middle east.

 

[nivek]

Lol wasnt the new PM of Israel guilty of raping a minor?

The world as we know it stand in the hands of the Saudis, should the Saudis stand with all the Islamic nations, goodbye Israel.

lovely... actually no the PM wasnt guilty of raping a minor. The TOKEN PRESIDENT (not PM) was accused.

 

[nivek]

How long has it been already? Hope to be alive to see Israel fall!

I'm yet to hear an Israeli or jew wanting to see any muslim nation "falling". They just want to be left alone.

Nice to see you can smile at the thought of a nation 'falling'. No one was celebrating in the streets when Lebanon was being bombed.

 

[Xarog]

I'm yet to hear an Israeli or jew wanting to see any muslim nation "falling".

Well I think you should be thankful for that. I've heard it. I've heard jews wanting to exterminate the muslims, too.

They just want to be left alone.

Not everyone. By the same token there are also muslims who want to be left alone.

Nice to see you can smile at the thought of a nation 'falling'.

Had I not been so young when it happened, I think I would have smiled at the thought of the Apartheid state falling.

No one was celebrating in the streets when Lebanon was being bombed.

But they were writing similar sentiments on online blogs and in newspapers.

 

[d0b33]

Bin Laen got into more as a political game, but even that was so that he could establish his Caliphate.
.

The US fears the caliphate, not because it could be led by an extremist(most Muslims are not extremists and wont allow it) it's because it's the only way to bring peace among all Muslims, it fills a void that can be exploited as is happening today

 

[nivek]

Well I think you should be thankful for that. I've heard it. I've heard jews wanting to exterminate the muslims, too.


Not everyone. By the same token there are also muslims who want to be left alone.


Had I not been so young when it happened, I think I would have smiled at the thought of the Apartheid state falling.


But they were writing similar sentiments on online blogs and in newspapers.

Well id love to know how its an apartheid state when ISRAELI Arabs have the exact same rights as Jews in Israel? There are Palestinians that work in Israel too, although i'm sure Israel can be forgiven for being selective as to who can enter the country judging by Islamic Jihad and Hamas's history.

Oh and while we're on the topic.. Israel has a muslim cabinet minister, and has 13 arabs in parliament.. Jews arent allowed to work in Saudi Arabia what so ever..
so please, save the racist accusations for the anc threads..

Id think 99% of jews would be perfectly happy with a Palestinian state if it meant peace and the acceptance of Israel from all sides and organizations, but there are groups that are hell bent on preventing peace and destroying Israel. But I guess there are some jews that are hell bent on preventing a Palestinian state, but they arent expressing themselves by blowing themselves up on civilian busses and in night clubs, (though its been relatively quietly as of late, from the hamas/islamic jihad side, but thats probably more due to tight security than anything else) and they are a minority.

 

[nivek]

Israeli citizens and travelers with Israeli stamps on their passports are forbidden to enter the country. It has been stated that Jews of any nationality are not allowed visas.

[edit] "Apartheid"
Saudi Arabia's practices against women have been referred to as "gender apartheid" and "sexual apartheid".[7] [8] [9] [10] Saudi Arabia's treatment of religious minorities has also been described as "apartheid".[11] [12] [13] [14] Until March 1, 2004, the official government website stated that Jews were forbidden from entering the country.[15]The 287,000 Palestinian refugees, who are currently living in Saudi Arabia, are not allowed citizenship and are often discriminated against. The kingdom maintains separate roads for Muslims and non-Muslims in the Holy cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

Freedom of religion
Main article: Religion in Israel
All religious groups have freedom to practice and maintain communal institutions in Israel. According to the 2005 US Department of State report on Israel, “[t]he law provides for freedom of religion, and the government generally respected this right in practice.”[4] After gaining control of the West Bank in 1967, Israel guaranteed Muslim access to mosques including the Al-Aqsa Mosque and Christian access to Churches [5], although this right was not extended to Israeli Jews when Jordan had control of the West Bank between 1948 and 1967. Israel has extended protection to religious sites of non-Jewish religions; most famously the IDF foiled a Kach party attempt to destroy the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and continue to protect this site, built on the remains of the Jewish temples and Christian churches, from attacks by non-Muslims [6]. At times, the observances of holy days by various religions has the potential to cause conflict. Israeli authorities have sometimes protected Muslim rights at the expense of Jewish ones [7][8].

Israel has given financial support towards Muslim religious observances. In 2006, the municipality of Jerusalem made many preparations for the Muslim holy month of Ramadan including the purchase and firing of shells for a special cannon used to signal the start and end of fasting and prayer times, the adornment of the Old City’s gates with lights in honor of the holiday, and sanitary lamb-slaughtering facilities for use during the three-day Eid el Fitr celebration at the end of the month. In addition, the city's welfare department will be distributing holiday gifts to needy Muslim families ahead of the holiday [9]. During this month, Jews living in the Muslim quarter of the city were asked not to leave their homes without prior coordination during the evening hours [10]. Israel does not give funding to some religious communities including Protestants [4].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel

 

[Xarog]

Well id love to know how its an apartheid state when ISRAELI Arabs have the exact same rights as Jews in Israel?

They don't have the exact same rights, that's the point. Any jew anywhere in the world has automatic citizenship rights, whereas the same palestinians alive today that were expelled in 1948 have no right to return. What about the laws preventing Israeli arabs from marrying arabs without Israeli citizenship?

Want me to go on?

Oh and while we're on the topic.. Israel has a muslim cabinet minister, and has 13 arabs in parliament..

Yeah, and the coloureds and indians also had their own form of limited representation.

ews arent allowed to work in Saudi Arabia what so ever..
so please, save the racist accusations for the anc threads..

So because they do it, Israel can do it too?

Id think 99% of jews would be perfectly happy with a Palestinian state

Wrong. There are *many* jews, much more than 1% who believe the entire region is theirs because it's the promised land.

but they arent expressing themselves by blowing themselves up on civilian busses and in night clubs,

No, they prefer to vote for all people who publicly entertain ideas of ethnic cleansing. Of course it's euphamistically referred to as the 'demographic problem'.

(though its been relatively quietly as of late, from the hamas/islamic jihad side, but thats probably more due to tight security than anything else)

No it's not. Go do some research and find out what a hudna is.

and they are a minority.

No they aren't. I can only surmise that you are ignorant about Israeli politics.

 

[neio]

I'm astounded by all the usual suspects defending Iran. Obviously they have not had access to the net or news for a while.

 

[neio]

The US fears the caliphate, not because it could be led by an extremist(most Muslims are not extremists and wont allow it) it's because it's the only way to bring peace among all Muslims, it fills a void that can be exploited as is happening today

Peace amongst Muhammad's followers will never happen.

http://www.biblicalproportions.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=648

 

[Xarog]

Peace amongst Muhammad's followers will never happen.

http://www.biblicalproportions.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=648

Yeah, a christian site discussing the occurance of the word 'ass' in the bible really proves your point...

 

[Xarog]

I'm astounded by all the usual suspects defending Iran. Obviously they have not had access to the net or news for a while.

Yes, obviously...

Maybe you're care to enlighten us poor sods as to exactly which pieces of news you are referring to.