Iran - The War Begins (article)

[neio]

Its not just any ass, its a wild ass.

 

[nivek]

They don't have the exact same rights, that's the point. Any jew anywhere in the world has automatic citizenship rights, whereas the same palestinians alive today that were expelled in 1948 have no right to return. What about the laws preventing Israeli arabs from marrying arabs without Israeli citizenship?

Some things are just necassary for security reasons. For the Israeli government security of the Israeli's are #1, whether they are jewish or muslim. That law only came into place recently when the violence had escalated. What do you think would happen if Israel opened its borders COMPLETELY to Palestine? Please enlighten us.

Yeah, and the coloureds and indians also had their own form of limited representation.

The point is they are a minority and they are represented. As whites and being a minority in South Africa we have very little meaningful representation too.

So because they do it, Israel can do it too?

The difference is, Israel does what it does to protect herself. Arab nations do it out of spite and for racist reasons.

But yes while we're on the topic, Israel always gets singled out, people love to attack Israel in the press and in debates, yet no one wants to talk about the human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia, Somalia (well done Ethiopia), Sudan..etc. Hell our own government would rather talk about the problems in the middle east, than Zimbabwe...

Wrong. There are *many* jews, much more than 1% who believe the entire region is theirs because it's the promised land.

Well there might be a few, but there are probably alot that are against giving back the West Bank, as we saw what happend with Gaza. Islamic Jihad and Hamas just used the space to get closer to Israel and fire their rockets. It doesnt mean they oppose the creation of a Palestinian state.
I also oppose giving back the West Bank until there is peace and Islamic Jihad and Hamas have accepted Israels existance.

No, they prefer to vote for all people who publicly entertain ideas of ethnic cleansing. Of course it's euphamistically referred to as the 'demographic problem'.

They vote for their safety.

No it's not. Go do some research and find out what a hudna is.

A hudna would include rockets being fired into Israel.
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006386121
Hudna my ass. The lack of suicide bombings is due to tight security.

 

[Xarog]

Some things are just necassary for security reasons.

Yeah, like the 90 day detentions without an arrest warrant? That's the exact same thing the Nats said, and it's absolute rubbish.

What do you think would happen if Israel opened its borders COMPLETELY to Palestine? Please enlighten us.

No one said the borders should be completely opened. You want to prevent suspected militants from getting into the country, fine, but that's a WHOLE different kettle of fish than violating the rights of many married couples within Israel.

The truth of the matter is that this has got nothing to do with security, but it has everything to do with dealing with the 'demographic' problem.

The difference is, Israel does what it does to protect herself. Arab nations do it out of spite and for racist reasons.

Bullsh!t.

But yes while we're on the topic, Israel always gets singled out, people love to attack Israel in the press and in debates, yet no one wants to talk about the human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia, Somalia (well done Ethiopia), Sudan..etc. Hell our own government would rather talk about the problems in the middle east, than Zimbabwe...

You're the one who placed Israel on a pedestal. No one said a god damned thing until you started falsely claiming that Israel was god's gift to good governance.

I also oppose giving back the West Bank until there is peace and Islamic Jihad and Hamas have accepted Israels existance.

Yeah, the same old cry. "Lay down your weapons, Recognise Israel's existence and *then* we'll *start* talking about a settlement, but no promises as to what you'll get!"

The only people who agree to such conditions are ones who have lost a war.

They vote for their safety.

Yeah, apartheid South Africa voted for their 'safety' too. That the unfair treatment non-whites got is what caused the threat to white's safety in the first place is beside the point, right?

And here's some more food for thought :

March 23, 2006

41% of Israeli Jews Want Apartheid-Style Recreation Facilities; 68% Don't Want to Live Next to an Arab

The Emerging Jewish Consensus in Israel

By JONATHAN COOK

If you want to understand what is concerning ordinary Israelis as they prepare to cast their ballots next week, the most revealing poll is also the one that has received least attention.

A few weeks after Ariel Sharon broke up his Likud party to form a new "centrist" faction, Kadima, his advisers conducted a poll to find out how potential voters would respond if its list of candidates included an Arab.

The results were unequivocal: Kadima would lose votes equivalent to between five and seven seats in the 120-member Knesset from Israeli Jews worried that they might be helping to elect an Arab.

Even allowing for a potential increase in Kadima's support from the country's Arab minority (a fifth of the population), the party decided the gamble was not worth it. Ahmad Dabah, an Arab mayor, was placed 51st on the list, with no hope of being elected.

Sharon established his new party late last year as an escape chute from Likud before its drift rightward became terminal. Kadima promised instead to occupy the centre ground of politics, representing the Israeli "consensus".

But that consensus is looking increasingly like a Jewish, not an Israeli, one. The country's one million Arabs are not being invited to join the party in every possible sense.

The principle of ethnic separation was always at the heart of the Jewish nation-building project. Hundreds of rural communities--including the kibbutz communes established after the state's birth in 1948--are strictly off-limits to the country's one million Arab citzens. Even in the the handful of "mixed" cities, Arabs inhabit their own isolated neighbourhoods.

Divisions are also enforced in the education system, with separate Arab and Jewish schools; and the "Hebrew labour" philosophy inherited from Zionism's pioneers means that much of the workplace is segregated too.

Decades of quiescence by the Arab minority have done nothing to reverse the antipathy of the Jewish majority. Another poll this week, published by the liberal Haaretz newspaper, showed that 68 per cent of Israeli Jews reject living near an Arab--and 41 per cent want apartheid-style separate recreation facilities. Surveys show repeatedly that nearly half of Israeli Jews favour the forced emigration of Arabs from Israel.

But Kadima's decision to exclude all meaningful Arab representation from its list points to a far more worrying stage in this ideology of separation.

Kadima's expected success--according to projections, it is looking at up to 40 seats--has depended on the public's close association of the party with the policy of unilateral separation. Sharon proved his own commitment to separation with his disengagement from Gaza last year and the building of a fence-cum-wall across the West Bank.

Sharon's successor as leader of Kadima, Ehud Olmert, will extend the program, promising further small disengagements from the West Bank in an attempt--in his own words--to draw the "final borders" of an expanded Jewish state. It is the triumph of the "We are here, and they are there" philosophy articulated by two recent Labor prime ministers, Yitzhak Rabin and Ehud Barak.

But what kind of a Jewish state inside final borders is Olmert proposing? Well, to start with, one whose consensus has been crafted to silence a fifth of the population. But there may be worse to come if, as expected, Kadima romps home to victory.

According to the Israeli media, Olmert has been flirting with a small but increasingly popular far-right party whose seats he may well need to prop up the coalition government he must form. Avigdor Lieberman of the Yisrael Beiteinu party is being hailed as the most likely kingmaker after the elections.

He could also be the face of a very unpleasant future.

Lieberman, the Likud's director-general in the days of Binyamin Netanyahu's premiership, is a darling of the right. But in truth he is far closer to Kadima than Likud.

Whereas Likud under Netanyahu rejects all talk of separation and disengagement from the Palestinians as a solution to the conflict, Lieberman is the arch-advocate of "reciprocal"--as opposed to unilateral--separation. In short, he believes that, if Israel is making sacrifices in Gaza and the West Bank by "expelling" settlers from their homes, then the Arab minority currently living in Israel should expect to pay a similar price.

He wants hundreds of thousands of Arab citizens who live in a small area of Israel adjacent to the northern tip of the West Bank to have their homes transferred out of the Jewish state and incorporated into what will be left of a ghetto Palestinian state behind Israel's separation barrier.

He also wants any remaning Arabs to be stripped of their citizenship unless they pledge loyalty to a "Jewish and democratic state". In signing up, they will forfeit the right to vote for Arab parties, which demand Israel's transformation from a Jewish state into a "state of all its citizens".

Lieberman is said to believe that the citizenship of up to 90 per cent of the Arab population can be annulled this way. And what he is saying publicly, there is every indication Kadima is saying privately.

For some time the Hebrew media have been reporting Sharon's interest in land swaps with the Palestinians as a way--in one fell swoop--to annex the settlement blocs and to strip Israel's Arab minority of its citizenship in a Jewish state. Olmert is assumed to be just as keen.

Kadima appears to be on a winning streak. Separation of the crudest and most ruthless kind is now, as the polls all too clearly demonstrate, precisely what the Israeli consensus demands.

 

[marine1]

Boooring, Arabs and Muslims do not want peace. They want everyone to be Muslim. That's what the Quaran preaches. The world has come to understand what Islam is truly about, death and destruction. We are not fools, we know what their agenda is.

 

[JK8]

Boooring, Arabs and Muslims do not want peace. They want everyone to be Muslim. That's what the Quaran preaches. The world has come to understand what Islam is truly about, death and destruction. We are not fools, we know what their agenda is.

They just want their mosque back.

 

[Xarog]

Boooring

And another ignorant jerk shows his true colours.

They want everyone to be Muslim. That's what the Quaran preaches.

Christianity preaches the same thing. The Quran, however, also preaches respect for the beliefs of Christians and Jews.

The world has come to understand what Islam is truly about, death and destruction. We are not fools, we know what their agenda is.

Ipse dixit.

 

[Skeptik]

They don't have the exact same rights, that's the point. Any jew anywhere in the world has automatic citizenship rights, whereas the same palestinians alive today that were expelled in 1948 have no right to return. What about the laws preventing Israeli arabs from marrying arabs without Israeli citizenship?

The Israeli arabs are a rather ungrateful lot who don't want to integrate. Many openly supported Hezbollah during the Lebanese conflict. Of course Israel doesn't want them to marry arab partners from other countries. With already large arab families that would eventually mean the end of Jewish Isreal. The Muslims in Britain are trying to do the same. Dominate by settlement. Grab yourself a virgin bride from Pakistan and bring her back to sunny Britain! Luckily they have closed that particular door. They don't mix their either. Muslim girls are heavily discouraged from marrying out of their tribe/faith/community. Their boys, on the other hand, can experiment sexually with the British girls as long as they don't marry them either.

Want me to go on?
.

No thanks!

Wrong. There are *many* jews, much more than 1% who believe the entire region is theirs because it's the promised land.

That is what they believe. Israel is their homeland. The palestinian homeland is Egypt mainly.

They just want their mosque back.

They could always dismantle it and ship it back in a crate. The Al Asqua mosque was built right over the most holy Jewish site in the land, the ruins of the Temple that the ROmans destroyed. Now do you see how and why the trouble starts? Incidentally, churches and temples are also a target for British Muslims.

 

[d0b33]

Boooring, Arabs and Muslims do not want peace. They want everyone to be Muslim. That's what the Quaran preaches. The world has come to understand what Islam is truly about, death and destruction. We are not fools, we know what their agenda is.

Non-Muslims are referred to as dhimmi (people of contract) in the Caliphate, which means they enjoy the full rights of citizenship. The Prophet Muhammad (saw) said: "He who abuses a dhimmi [non-Muslim citizen] then I will be his rival and dispute him on the Day of Judgment."

 

[Xarog]

The Israeli arabs are a rather ungrateful lot who don't want to integrate.

...

I can only say that I'm glad that I was not drinking anything at the time that I read this or right now I'd be wiping my monitor clean rather than writing this post.

How you can even say that with a straight face beggars belief.

But I shouldn't laugh - it's really no laughing matter. I can only suggest you read this : http://www.counterpunch.org/atzmon01202007.html and then maybe you will begin to understand.

With already large arab families that would eventually mean the end of Jewish Isreal.

Well, at least you're honest about it.

No thanks!

The truth is rather harsh, isn't it?

That is what they believe. Israel is their homeland.

Tell Nivek, not me - he's the one who seems to think otherwise.

The palestinian homeland is Egypt mainly.

Funny how so many were living in what is now Israel before they were ethnically cleansed in 1948, huh?

 

[marine1]

And another ignorant jerk shows his true colours.

Ahhh sticks and stones child, sticks and stone

Christianity preaches the same thing. The Quran, however, also preaches respect for the beliefs of Christians and Jews.

Yes we have all seen what Islam preaches. Blowing up thousands of people in the WTC and everywhere they get a chance. Just look at what is going on in the UK. Who the hell do these radicals think they are? The come in to the UK and France as guests and then start their k@k again acting as though they built those countries. Serves those countries right for allowing them there in the first place.

 

[Nanfeishen]

Yes we have all seen what Islam preaches. Blowing up thousands of people in the WTC and everywhere they get a chance. Just look at what is going on in the UK. Who the hell do these radicals think they are? The come in to the UK and France as guests and then start their k@k again acting as though they built those countries. Serves those countries right for allowing them there in the first place.

I am not a racist, nor am i a bigot, but i do think that these radicals , should be hunted down, and eliminated on a mass scale.
Did anyone ever read Judge dread comics? , that is exactly what we need , individuals, who are totally, and uterlly, without remorse, and without judgement, who have the integrety to eleiminate those considered to be a threat, or a danger to the general populous.
It may seem radical, but it is the only solution, in this scenario of terrorists and radicals.

 

[Xarog]

Ahhh sticks and stones child, sticks and stone.

Well if you claim everything that gets in the way of your arab hatred is 'Boooring' then you deserve what you get.

Yes we have all seen what Islam preaches. Blowing up thousands of people in the WTC and everywhere they get a chance.

Even assuming that Al Qaeda was responsible for the attacks, so fu.cking what? Does Al Qaeda speak for all muslims? Does every neo-nazi idiot who assaults a jew speak for all christians?

Just look at what is going on in the UK.

Yeah, I imagine De Menezes is pretty miffed right about now.

Who the hell do these radicals think they are? The come in to the UK and France as guests and then start their k@k again acting as though they built those countries. Serves those countries right for allowing them there in the first place.

I stand by my previous claim. You're nothing but an ignorant jerk. You have no desire to see reason and nor do you consider the possibility that you are wrong. You consider the muslims to all be 'bad' and nothing anyone says will ever change your mind.

I have a saying you might like, it goes : "Four legs good, two legs bad!" It comes from Animal Farm.

I am not a racist, nor am i a bigot, but i do think that these radicals , should be hunted down, and eliminated on a mass scale.
Did anyone ever read Judge dread comics? , that is exactly what we need , individuals, who are totally, and uterlly, without remorse, and without judgement, who have the integrety to eleiminate those considered to be a threat, or a danger to the general populous.
It may seem radical, but it is the only solution, in this scenario of terrorists and radicals.

I have a better idea : let's examine why these radicals are so angry in the first place. It's so easy to declare that 'radicals' are beyond hope and that they are utterly unreasonable. Propaganda relies on the fact that we fear that which we do not know and that we believe that we are right and those that oppose us can only be bad because anyone with two braincells can see reason right infront of us. But the fact of the matter is that the truth is a very murky puddle and in advocating that you hunt down and eradicate all radicals you're falling into a rather deadly (yet attractive) trap.

 

[marine1]

Even assuming that Al Qaeda was responsible for the attacks, so fu.cking what? Does Al Qaeda speak for all muslims?

Yes it seems they do.

Does every neo-nazi idiot who assaults a jew speak for all christians?Sorry but they were responsible for it.

No, they speak for every Neo-Nazi.

I stand by my previous claim. You're nothing but an ignorant jerk. You have no desire to see reason and nor do you consider the possibility that you are wrong. You consider the muslims to all be 'bad' and nothing anyone says will ever change your mind.

So genius, you think by name calling that's going to change my mind? You are the jerk here. Yes, I think all Muslims are a danger to world peace. "5.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. "


4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

They are radical because their religion preaches so. If they don't like the way France or England is run then why the hell don't they leave. No one is forcing them to stay there.

 

[marine1]

I am not a racist, nor am i a bigot, but i do think that these radicals , should be hunted down, and eliminated on a mass scale.
Did anyone ever read Judge dread comics? , that is exactly what we need , individuals, who are totally, and uterlly, without remorse, and without judgement, who have the integrety to eleiminate those considered to be a threat, or a danger to the general populous.
It may seem radical, but it is the only solution, in this scenario of terrorists and radicals.

I agree with you 100%.

 

[Skeptik]

Even assuming that Al Qaeda was responsible for the attacks, so fu.cking what? Does Al Qaeda speak for all muslims?

I find this argument interesting and revealing at the same time. If we kill a Muslim insergent in Iraq, then Muslims everywhere protest because their 'brother' is now in heaven with his 70 virgins. However if Muslims fly a fully loaded plane into the WTC killing other Muslims, then they are not your brothers and "you can't blame us".
See the contradiction ??

 

[Xarog]

Yes it seems they do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_Islam

Next thing you'll tell me that the Catholic church speaks for Protestants. .

And there were several groups of muslims all over the world which denounced the WTC attacks. But I guess the fact is inconvenient to your world view so you like to forget it.

No, they speak for every Neo-Nazi.

Then niether does a few Wahabbi muslims speak for all of Islam.

So genius, you think by name calling that's going to change my mind?

I tried using reason, but you called that "boooring", so now we're trying something else. If you have a better suggestion though, feel free to share it.

They are radical because their religion preaches so. If they don't like the way France or England is run then why the hell don't they leave. No one is forcing them to stay there.

Yeah, pity the black South Africans never thought that when they were under the yoke of Apartheid, right?

See the contradiction ??

Not really. If a neo-nazi kills a jew or a muslim then you denounce their activities, but if a muslim kills a few americans then suddenly you protest because your 'brother' is now dead. And I'm not a muslim so muslims aren't my brothers unless we're speaking in the general "every person is the brother of every other person" context.

 

[d0b33]

However if Muslims fly a fully loaded plane into the WTC killing other Muslims, then they are not your brothers and "you can't blame us".

There where many non-Muslims who supported the 911 attacks openly around the world, some Chinese students I read, and most famously is Bobby Fischer(he's mom was Jewish).

Hours after the September 11, 2001 attacks Fischer was interviewed live[8] by Pablo Mercado on the Baguio City station of the Bombo Radyo network, shortly after midnight September 12, 2001 Philippines local time (or shortly after noon on September 11, 2001, New York time). Fischer commented on U.S and Israeli foreign policy that "nobody cares ... [that] the US and Israel have been slaughtering the Palestinians for years". Informed that "the White House and Pentagon have been attacked", he proclaimed "This is all wonderful news". Fischer stated "What goes around comes around even for the United States" and said that if the U.S. fails to change its foreign policy, it "has to be destroyed." After calling for President Bush's death, Fischer also stated he hoped that a Seven Days in May-type military coup d' etat would take over power in the U.S. and then execute "hundreds of thousands of American Jewish leaders", "arrest all the Jews" and "close all synagogues".

 

[marine1]

Next thing you'll tell me that the Catholic church speaks for Protestants. .

We are not talking about Christians, we are talking about Muslims.

And there were several groups of muslims all over the world which denounced the WTC attacks. But I guess the fact is inconvenient to your world view so you like to forget it.

Yes they denounced it because they were all **** scared. serves them right.

Yeah, pity the black South Africans never thought that when they were under the yoke of Apartheid, right?

Again, we are talking about Muslims not black South Africans.

Not really. If a neo-nazi kills a jew or a muslim then you denounce their activities, but if a muslim kills a few americans then suddenly you protest because your 'brother' is now dead. And I'm not a muslim so muslims aren't my brothers unless we're speaking in the general "every person is the brother of every other person" context.

Neo nazi kill a Muslim? No comment. Neo Nazis do no go around blowing people up like Muslims do. Wherever there are Muslims in the world there is either war or some kind of instability.

 

[Xarog]

We are not talking about Christians, we are talking about Muslims.

Yes they denounced it because they were all **** scared. serves them right.

Again, we are talking about Muslims not black South Africans.

Neo nazi kill a Muslim? No comment.

Your bigotry and your irrational hatred is clear to see.

Neo Nazis do no go around blowing people up like Muslims do.

So its okay to kill people (like neo-nazis do) as long as you don't do it with a bomb? Interesting moral philosophy you've got there - I presume you're going to retract your thread about the crime problem in this country, seeing as how almost none of it involves bombs of any kind.

Wherever there are Muslims in the world there is either war or some kind of instability.

So the problems in Zimbabwe were caused by muslims? What about the strife between the hutus and the tutsis? What about the DRC? What about vietnam, was that all a muslim plot?

 

[marine1]

So its okay to kill people (like neo-nazis do) as long as you don't do it with a bomb? Interesting moral philosophy you've got there - I presume you're going to retract your thread about the crime problem in this country, seeing as how almost none of it involves bombs of any kind.

You are hysterical. Where did I say it was ok for Neo-Nazis to kill people? You just running out of rubbish to post.

So the problems in Zimbabwe were caused by muslims? What about the strife between the hutus and the tutsis? What about the DRC? What about vietnam, was that all a muslim plot?

No they were cause by an anti-semitic dictator. Sound familiar?
Maybe one of your mates?