Yes, patents are there to protect the genius's of this world - from the vultures. If the vulture wants to innovate something new using someone else's design and brilliant idea, then he must pay for it - in the form of a license issued by the company holding the patent. THAT, my friends, is what business is all about. THAT is what drives the genius's to come up with NEW ideas.....not try and feed off of someone else's genius. If there were no protection for genius, then the genius would simply stop developing new ideas, because they would not be rewarded for it.
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Is Apple worse for open source software than Microsoft?
- Thread starter rpm
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ph0nix
Member
A very fair point eltherza, I think perhaps one has to look at it from multiple perspectives. There is the general desktop/OS environment, and then there is the device environment like the iPod/iPhone etc. While I understand the need for some sort of quality and reliability review of apps that go onto these devices, I do agree that Apple's take on it is quite obsessive, and dislike the fact that Apple ultimately will decide to allow an application to be published or not. At least on the desktop (OS X) as a developer I'm free to use a number of different development languages like Java, Python, C, Objective C etc, and can freely distribute or sell my applications.
Actually patents hardly protect the geniuses nowdays, it is the corporations which benefit far more, and they abuse them in all kinds of ways.
In every patent system there are things that cannot be patented. The vast majority of countries do not allow software patents - software is just maths. Why are the few messed up places that allow them (US, Japan) supposed to be better?
Software patents act like a 20-30% tax to all computer users. Still like them? That figure will likely go up if more countries support the broken system.
Biscuit1018
Expert Member
I am a MS and Apple customer.
I have a iMac, Mac Mini and an iPhone. For business I generally use MS for various reasons.
I never paid any attention to whether Flash was behind a website till Apple brought the issue to the forefront. Recently I wanted to get to a leading website on my iPhone and I got stumped by Flash not being supported on the iPhone. I remember being angry with Apple. Only later did I realise that what you say is true. Virtually all browser issues I have seem to occur when a website using Flash gets in the way. Obviously the website authors may have messed it up but Flash certainly does seem to be processor hungry.
If Flash is going to mess with an iPhone user experience then the user will probably blame Apple and not Adobe.
So Jobs logic of protecting the user, whilst paternalistic makes good business sense. Most users will not be able to figure out the root cause of the issue.
Put Open Source to one side and lets talk free software (or cheap software).
Yes Apple insist that software distribution takes place through their Appstore. And yes they have an approval process BUT
a) Software on the Appstore can be free (and often is). The developer sets the price not Apple. How 'open' is that. You can use Apples infrastructure to distribute your software.
b) Apple hardly ever refuse permission for software to be placed in their Appstore
c) Another indicator of 'openness' is the extent to which developers embrace it. In a few short years the number of Apps available has grown exponentially. Almost too much is available?
d) Nothing stops an Open Source developer from posting his source code on a website.
Ok so Jobs & Co can be a little heavy handed. However Apple has a small but high margin market share and there are natural limits to which he can 'abuse' the customers. His users are not locked in. HApple has to delight their customers to keep them loyal.
Microsoft on the other hand often has users locked in. There is almost no limit to which M/S can abuse their customers.
Rouxenator
Dank meme lord
The EU has done a good job of getting M$ on the right track and slamming intel with a massive fine for being naughty (I also preached about that for years).
So heed my words - apple has got an EU spanking coming - a long overdue and well deserved one. Being a snob is one thing, not playing nice with the other kids is quiet another.
So heed my words - apple has got an EU spanking coming - a long overdue and well deserved one. Being a snob is one thing, not playing nice with the other kids is quiet another.
Biscuit1018
Expert Member
Agreed. Patents are grossly abused. Many things get patented that should not be able to be patented.
People mix up patents and copyright.
Copyright laws protect developers from being eaten by the vultures.
Patents on software prevent ideas from moving forward and as you say they place a tax on the industry.
Furthermore they are only affordable to the large corporations.
Copyright is enough when it comes to software.
Its funny how many people confuse quality with innovation and cross platform, cross vendor development. Yes, Apple generally makes good quality stuff. The problem is, they operate a monopoly and are currently abusing it. They are stifling innovation, restricting competition, and reducing the choices for end users. Even if you like Apple, thats a bad thing. What do you think will happen when they have killed off Android with patent troll lawsuits, and killed all other media players by locking everyone into iTunes? Still think they will have an incentive to innovate and improve? They wont, and thats the problem.
And it doesnt even matter whether FOSS is up to scratch with Apple stuff. Who cares? The point is, its being developed out in the open, following open standards, with an inclusive development model. Yes, there is infighting. Yes, there is conflict. There is also some amazing stuff, like Ubuntu being the first distro to be sold by Dell. Android being a mostly FOSS platform sold by a MAJOR brand. Moblin being developed by Intel and then open sourced. This is all cool and amazing stuff, and it will die if Apple has its way. If Apple has its way, you will connect your iPhone to your iMac using iTunes, and not anything else. A Windows machine? Fuhgeddaboudit. Anything other than an iPhone, such as an Android phone? Again, fuhgeddaboudit.
Those Apple fanboys who proclaim their love for Steve Jobs and say that Apple can do no evil really dont get it. They harming the software ecosystem, they are abusing their monopoly. I would hope its only a matter of time before a lawsuit is filed against them for anticompetitive practices, similar to how Intel was slapped with a lawsuit, and Microsoft. Both did similar things (Intel arguably mostly affected the end user only through distributors though), and both paid the price (in Intel's case, more than a billion dollars). Lets hope the same happens to Apple.
And it doesnt even matter whether FOSS is up to scratch with Apple stuff. Who cares? The point is, its being developed out in the open, following open standards, with an inclusive development model. Yes, there is infighting. Yes, there is conflict. There is also some amazing stuff, like Ubuntu being the first distro to be sold by Dell. Android being a mostly FOSS platform sold by a MAJOR brand. Moblin being developed by Intel and then open sourced. This is all cool and amazing stuff, and it will die if Apple has its way. If Apple has its way, you will connect your iPhone to your iMac using iTunes, and not anything else. A Windows machine? Fuhgeddaboudit. Anything other than an iPhone, such as an Android phone? Again, fuhgeddaboudit.
Those Apple fanboys who proclaim their love for Steve Jobs and say that Apple can do no evil really dont get it. They harming the software ecosystem, they are abusing their monopoly. I would hope its only a matter of time before a lawsuit is filed against them for anticompetitive practices, similar to how Intel was slapped with a lawsuit, and Microsoft. Both did similar things (Intel arguably mostly affected the end user only through distributors though), and both paid the price (in Intel's case, more than a billion dollars). Lets hope the same happens to Apple.
Thats for the consumer to decide, not Apple. Many people using desktop machines use Flash, or alternatives. If its so crap, no one will use it right?
Funny, when Flash crashes on Windows you generally hear people blaming Flash, not Windows. Are you saying iPhone users are too stupid to tell the difference?
But you cant distribute it any other way unless you jailbreak your phone. Not only do developers need to pay Apple a fee even if they want to list a free app, but it means Apple has total control over which apps are available. No other platform in the world is like this, and Apple's isnt better for being the only one.
Really? Are you sure?
No, its not an indicator of openness at all, you dimwit. How much closed source software is available for Windows? Many many many more than the amount of open source software. How open is the platform? The difference between even a closed platform like Windows and a uber anally retentive platform like Apple's is that A) developers can actually provide feedback to Windows, B) through being forced to by lawsuits, Windows is more interoperable, C) Microsoft doesnt control which applications are available for Windows, at all.
But he cant reveal anything that the terms of the SDK EULA prevent him from doing, his friends cant just download and run his source code from his website, they cant improve it, pass it on and have it available to other people.
You really think that Microsoft is worse for lock in than Apple? Really?
Biscuit1018
Expert Member
A monopoly? A monopoly on what?
I am not clear how a company with such a tiny market share can be a monopoly.
They are extremely proprietary no argument but how is it monopolistic?
In SA Apple does make me grumpy because of their single distributor channel. That could be argued to be anti-competitive.
I agree knowledge is derivative, doesn't mean someone else could have solved Poincare'. Still took something exceptional from a guy who worked his a$$ off and if wants to make money he should be allowed to. Patents often give people incentive to come up with something new and amazing that they can own!
Biscuit1018
Expert Member
Dimwit? I may respond later but maybe not. The debate was polite and you got insulting. Just because it is a blog it does not mean you can be insulting. Maybe I am a dimwit maybe not. You don't know me.
You are however most definitely rude.
Whats the current Apple market share on both media players (iPods) and consumer smartphones (iPhones)?
Sorry, I just got a little carried away. Its just.... so blatantly wrong that a platform with a lot of applications available for it is in anyway open. It isnt. Its just so wrong it made me want to scream.
I didnt mean offence though.
murraybiscuit
Executive Member
the global market share on apple phones is not the highest, but is growing fast
global: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone
it appears that the nexus one is doing well vs apple globally though
http://mobiler.co.za/smartphones/3339.html
locally it's slightly different afaik - nokia is still ahead, with blackberry next and iphone / winmo following.
i don't have any stats to back that up though... i'll try get some.
ipods probably a different story i'm sure.
global: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone
it appears that the nexus one is doing well vs apple globally though
http://mobiler.co.za/smartphones/3339.html
locally it's slightly different afaik - nokia is still ahead, with blackberry next and iphone / winmo following.
i don't have any stats to back that up though... i'll try get some.
ipods probably a different story i'm sure.
d0b33
Honorary Master
Uhmm no, Microsoft is still a bigger threat.
This is a ridiculous article though, open source is open source, proprietary is proprietary they can live together side by side.
This is a ridiculous article though, open source is open source, proprietary is proprietary they can live together side by side.
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Yeah, Einstein and Newton were sure lucky they had the patent system to protect their discoveries or they never would have bothered...
You still insist on talking about subjects of which you have no clue. Amazing.
You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
More tripe. Like I said, show me someone who developed something without standing on the shoulders of giants and I will show you a liar. People come up with good ideas that drive humanity forward but they utilize thousands of years of previous knowledge to do so. To then claim that they have sole ownership of the idea is arrogance in the extreme.
More proof.
Biscuit1018
Expert Member
iPhone -> 16.6% of the Smartphone market
Music players -> 73.8% in a market they *almost* invested. In fact the launch of the iPod arguably helped other players more than it harmed them.
Apology accepted
I might be nitpicking here but touch screens aren't patented, multi-touch is. big difference.
and afaik, Wacom have Multitouch Tablets too, not just the android.
it's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be - they just don't want you to copy their phone which took them years of research.
patents are there to protect the person innovating - if there was no patents, nobody would innovate IMO as it would just get mass produced easily by another company. (and fairly quickly, too)
d0b33
Honorary Master
Yeah some people think apple should be communist. It's capitalism ffs.
