Jimmy Manyi at it again

[Tassidar]

You are exhibiting bad form Tassidar, by trying to illustrate your point through anecdoctal evidence, which you know very well cannot be verified. Furthermore, such anecdoctal evidence does not mean that it is universally the case.

Let's say that you're not lying about any of this since you clearly won't be proving proof of your allegations. Any company that employes a token in such a crucial position deserves what they get.



Another unsubstantiated allegation. Let's please refrain from making wild statements like these without providing proof guys please.


And......Member of the rulling party ????? I'm not sure what you're on about, but have a look at this.

https://www.saica.co.za/default.asp?redir=%2FDisplayContent%2Easp%3FContentpageID%3D231

Fair enough, I accept that my statement was anecdotal. So let me provide another source, properly researched:
http://secure.financialmail.co.za/07/0119/cover/coverstory.htm

Fights over who should get what contract are happening with growing frequency countrywide. It is a matter of embarrassment to the ANC, a party many members proudly think of in terms of its struggle legacy. That legacy is now being severely undermined, and the party seems paralysed.

The ANC, as the party in government, is centrally involved in dishing out tenders and contracts. The introduction of commercial interests is one factor that is undermining its proud political footing. Another is the "deployment" of ANC comrades to business.

In parliament, 40% of ANC MPS are directors of companies, many owning them outright. Such interests are often in construction and mining. The ANC national executive has several ultra-rich members involved in business or, in the case of several cabinet ministers, whose spouses are business high-flyers.

At the ANC's last national conference five years ago, black economic empowerment (BEE) became ANC policy and engaging in business, to transform the economy, won official recognition as an acceptable revolutionary activity.

Quickly, ANC activists at provincial and local level followed the examples of their national leaders and headed into business.

On a macro level, looking at the redistribution of wealth and opportunities and the growth of black business and ownership, progress has been slow but positive. But the grassroots picture is not a such a pretty one.

Kimberley, for example, is a small city where, after mining, government business is the best game in town. The teacup meeting was not unusual: since 1999, when ANC comrades were first deployed in business, the awarding of tenders has been controversial.

Many ordinary members in the ANC say they got the impression from the start that who got what tender was being brazenly staged by their political seniors. At least two senior public servants left their jobs and landed lucrative outsourcing tenders in a matter of weeks, after being "deployed" to business, activists tell the FM, by the top structures of the party.

There is no scientific measure of how bad corruption in SA really is. Organisations like Transparency International measure corruption on the basis of perceptions through interviews. SA comes out reasonably well, rated the second-least corrupt country in Africa. This might reflect the macro picture of SA's big corporates and government departments. But it is certainly a radical underestimation of what is happening at a micro level in provinces and municipalities.

Motlanthe, in touch with the ANC's nearly 200 branches, has a better view than most. He believes corruption is far worse than anyone imagines.

"This rot is across the board. It's not confined to any level or any area of the country. Almost every project is conceived because it offers opportunities for certain people to make money. A great deal of the ANC's problems are occasioned by this. There are people who want to take it over so they can arrange for the appointment of those who will allow them possibilities for future accumulation," he says.

Members the FM interviewed implied that sending contracts the way of an ANC-linked businessman was frequently legitimised by the notion that doing so was "good for the ANC". Often, it is claimed, the profit will be for the ANC itself - a statement, says Motlanthe, that is far more often false than true.

The ANC has conceded that the acquisition of state power and unprecedented opportunities for its members to acquire wealth have had a corrupting effect and pose fundamental dangers for the organisation.

The admission is contained in the latest version of "The strategy and tactics of the ANC", a document that captures the party's thinking on how to reshape SA society and that has been redrafted ahead of the party's national conference in December. It is the first of several conference discussion documents and gives a good indication of the areas likely to be debated at the December conference, or at its precursor, the ANC national policy conference in July.

WHAT IT MEANS
The blurring of lines between state and party causes concern
Previous solutions are seen to have failed

The issues listed include:

* The involvement of serving politicians in business affairs;

* The relationship between the party and the state (including the undue interference of ANC politicians in government's operational decisions); and

* A plan to modernise the ANC.

http://secure.financialmail.co.za/07/0209/features/gfeat.htm

Eight years ago - at the start of Thabo Mbeki's presidency - the opposite was being encouraged. In a bid to accelerate transformation, a policy of deployment of ANC cadres to "all the levers of power" was advocated, leading to, in practice, the virtual collapse of the distinction between party and state.

If you read these two articles, I think you will find that the more than justify my point.

And......Member of the rulling party ????? I'm not sure what you're on about, but have a look at this.

In this case, I was referring to the general rather than the specific.

 

[Bageloo]

Unfortunately, it is often the case. To name two examples that I personally have encountered:

I know of one man who sat on the board of one of the largest companies in SA. He was known to regularly fall asleep during meetings, and during his whole time there, said not one word. This self-same person then landed a prominent job in local government, even though he was completely unqualified for the job. I could say a great deal more about him too.

Another example is the Chairman of a large mining corporation who was financially illiterate.

Tell me something, how is someone supposed be able to account for a company's performance, when they cannot understand it themselves?

No Jozi, what is racist and corrupt is that to do business in South Africa, you need to appoint a member of the ruling party to sit on your board, regardless of whether they are competent or interested in doing the job properly.

Essentially, this is a form of legalised racketeering. It has nothing to do with correcting past imbalances and everything to do with corruption and cronyism.

This is one case where it's not so. Your ranting is therefore not relevant to this issue. Moyo is doing a good job as is indicated above.

 

[Tassidar]

This is one case where it's not so. Your ranting is therefore not relevant to this issue. Moyo is doing a good job as is indicated above.

Again, I was referring to the general rather than the specific. However, you choose to defend only this case. Is there perhaps a reason for it?

 

[milomak]

Well this thread is about Manyi?

 

[Rooinek]

Again, I was referring to the general rather than the specific. However, you choose to defend only this case. Is there perhaps a reason for it?

The post you indicated supports the assertion that there are increasing incidences of corruption among ANC members. Which I think is true to some extent.

But corruption in the ANC and Moyo's capability to do the job are not really not the same thing or similar page of book.

 

[Tassidar]

The post you indicated supports the assertion that there are increasing incidences of corruption among ANC members. Which I think is true to some extent.

But corruption in the ANC and Moyo's capability to do the job are not really not the same thing or similar page of book.

For the last time, I was responding to a specific statement. However, I am glad to see you agree with my statement - I will bookmark this post.

What does concern me, however about the BMF, is the presumption of guilty until proven innocent. Manyi, in particular has as history of making rash comments, as has been discussed on this thread already.

So far, we have heard little from the company, and nothing from Moyo himself.

“The consortium has full confidence in Moyo as group CEO and hence he continues in this role. There is no suggestion that Moyo’s role will be diminished. We have every confidence in Moyo’s ability to continue to lead the group as CEO,” he said.

“We have been very impressed with Peter’s performance in the job, which is demonstrated by the strong financial results for the year to 31 March 2007 under very difficult circumstances and the management of the reputational issues that faced the company,” he said.

I think the matter is less one of competence, and more one of Jimmy Manyi seeking to interfere wherever he can.

I have an objection to the immediate assumption of racism, from a group that is itself inherently racist.

 

[Jozi101]

I think the matter is less one of competence, and more one of Jimmy Manyi seeking to interfere wherever he can.

He's the chairman of the BMF. Issues such as these would fall under his scope of concern IMO.

I have an objection to the immediate assumption of racism, from a group that is itself inherently racist.

How so?

 

[Tassidar]

He's the chairman of the BMF. Issues such as these would fall under his scope of concern IMO.

How so?

Clearly the group assumed it was racist as it provided no reasons, nor did Manyi show that he had talked to the concerned parties. Clearly, if you suspect a problem like that, it is better to speak to the parties first before going to the media to get publicity.

If you doubt that the BMF is racist in itself, please imagine the converse: 'a white managers forum', forming part of the mainstream, and having links to government (I am not talking about some small, underground fringe organisation that has no real influence).

 

[McSack]

How so?

Well if it was the WMF and only encouraged white membership, would it be considered an inherently racist organisation?

 

[Jozi101]

Clearly the group assumed it was racist as it provided no reasons, nor did Manyi show that he had talked to the concerned parties. Clearly, if you suspect a problem like that, it is better to speak to the parties first before going to the media to get publicity.

If you doubt that the BMF is racist in itself, please imagine the converse: 'a white managers forum', forming part of the mainstream, and having links to government (I am not talking about some small, underground fringe organisation that has no real influence).

South Africa's cooperate world has been exactly that, for decades (I.e. A White management forum). In order for black people in general to penetrate this invisible wall that exists, there is a definite need for an organisation such as the BMF to look after the interests of black professionals within the bigger scheme of things (The advancement of black people within cooperate SA). Damn i sound like a politician.

 

[sox63]

Clearly the group assumed it was racist as it provided no reasons, nor did Manyi show that he had talked to the concerned parties. Clearly, if you suspect a problem like that, it is better to speak to the parties first before going to the media to get publicity.

If you doubt that the BMF is racist in itself, please imagine the converse: 'a white managers forum', forming part of the mainstream, and having links to government (I am not talking about some small, underground fringe organisation that has no real influence).

Tassidar

The Black Management Forum, was formed as an organisation that will help foster and develop Black Manegerial talent. It is a non-racial organisation and has been so since the late 80s.

If you look at the way it does that with mentoring and so on, White managers have a big role that they play in the organisation. If you believe in the idea of the developing of Black Managers then you can join too.

http://www.bmfonline.co.za/

 

[sox63]

Well if it was the WMF and only encouraged white membership, would it be considered an inherently racist organisation?

The BMF does not encourage black only membership. They have a mandate and if people feel they want to contribute to the mandate, they are free to join. Even companies.

 

[Sneeky]

Tassidar

The Black Management Forum, was formed as an organisation that will help foster and develop Black Manegerial talent. It is a non-racial organisation and has been so since the late 80s.

If you look at the way it does that with mentoring and so on, White managers have a big role that they play in the organisation. If you believe in the idea of the developing of Black Managers then you can join too.

http://www.bmfonline.co.za/

and you question the appointment of someone that might or might not oversee/advise Moyo????
How so?

 

[Bageloo]

Well if it was the WMF and only encouraged white membership, would it be considered an inherently racist organisation?

It would definitely be considered very racist.
BMF does not encourage only black membership. Membership was opened to all races in 1989.
Anyone who identifies with the ideals of BMF can be a member regardless of race.

 

[McSack]

It would definitely be considered very racist.
BMF does not encourage only black membership. Membership was opened to all races in 1989.
Anyone who identifies with the ideals of BMF can be a member regardless of race.

OK let me rephrase...

WMF, anyone can join, but our stated mission is the advancement of white managers.

 

[Rooinek]

and you question the appointment of someone that might or might not oversee/advise Moyo????
How so?

I think you are confusing issues. The BMF has a mandate to develop black managerial talent, this does not in any way mean that all black manager's need over-sight.

The article categorically states that Moyo has managed his post with excellence, even in very trying times, as such he clearly does not need to be developed or to have over-sight.

The question that Jimmy Mannyi is asking is if he has managed so well, why does he need a white over-seer or any over-seer at all?

 

[Bageloo]

and you question the appointment of someone that might or might not oversee/advise Moyo????
How so?

he does not need mentoring. As said before in the original article. Moyo is now a seasoned proffessional, a graduate of Wits and Harvard business schools, he has been doing well in his role. Why does he get a baby sitter?

 

[sox63]

and you question the appointment of someone that might or might not oversee/advise Moyo????
How so?

Moyo is NOT an intern! He is a very expereanced manager who has steered Aforbes through some difficult times. Like the time they were busted for pocketing profits on interest accrued to the funds they manage. And he and his team managed to avoid having to pay hundreds of millions of rands.

For the new shareholder to seemingly come and undermine his authority with such an appointment is stupid. IMO they relied heavily on Campbell to push through the deal with authorities and making policy and all those things and promised him the CEO position with some sweet share options. Now they get there and the Board is still more than happy with Moyo, however they are the new owners and then now install him in an Executive Chairman position, which is rare in its self.

 

[Bageloo]

OK let me rephrase...

WMF, anyone can join, but our stated mission is the advancement of white managers.

Are white managers marginalised in any way?

 

[McSack]

This is all such BS. If things had been the other way around, this would not even have been a discussion topic.

As far as I'm concerned has only become an issue because the likes of Manyi have an inferiority complex