LCD and Plasma Bargains

[PostmanPot]

I notice judder/tearing via HD PVR on my own 32" C Series 5, and friend's 40" C Series 5 which I regularly watch. Also 46" CX520 which I also regularly watch. These using the highest quality Supersport feeds.

Both owners of the 40" Sammy and 46" Sony say HD TV and picture, sport etc. quality is better on my 42" C450 plasma.

Someone is phibbing, based on my conversion rate (forumites comparing S5 LCD vs S4 plasma) I'd say it's you.

 

[McGuywer]

PP, whats your settings on your Sammy?

 

[CarbonZA]

PS51d450 it is, cant wait to setup that bad boy this afternoon!

 

[Roman4604]

Someone is phibbing, based on my conversion rate (forumites comparing S5 LCD vs S4 plasma) I'd say it's you.

No i suspect some ppl need to get sharper at setting up & optimising their viewing environment.

I have a near perfect motion reference (200Hz D6000) so can clearly see where the C530 is lagging, and if setup correctly its not far behind. It takes specific quality of 1080i signal (mostly from US) and a scene with lots of movement to notice motion anomolies. For instance with the RWC feeds there's little difference, only say the first part of flight when the ball is booted hard.

 

[PostmanPot]

No i suspect some ppl need to get sharper at setting up & optimising their viewing environment.

I've already made sure of the first optimisation - making sure the room doesn't have bright lighting/sunlight, an environment where plasma trounced LCD.

Unfortunately viewing distance is fixed at 3m, and at that distance it's impossible to tell the difference between 1080p and 720p, like all the expert diagrams and articles mention, as well as the dosebs and dosens of forumites/friends who've compared.

 

[Roman4604]

making sure the room doesn't have bright lighting/sunlight

Not just that basic stuff.

Do you understand what every possible setting on the TV & HDPVR do, what effect they will have, how they will interact with each other. The difference between a rubbish & wow picture is usually a few settings away, if you know what your doing.

 

[Magandroid]

I've been doing a bit of research and this is my understanding of the different definitions. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

1080p (progressive scanning) means that the resolution is 1920x1080 which in turn means that there are 1920 lines running horizontally and 1080 lines vertically. This means that total of, 1920x1080=2 073 600 lines of resolution are displayed on the screen. In the case of 1080p, every line, vertical and horizontal, as well as every even and odd numbered line, is displayed together with a total of 2 073 600 lines being displayed simultaneously.

1080i (interlaced) on the other hand, also displays 1920 lines horizontally and 1080 lines vertically, but even numbered lines then odd numbered lines are displayed alternately. This flickering between even and uneven lines mean that only 2 073 600 divide by 2= 1 036 800 lines are displayed at any one time, which happens at such a fast rate that the eye cannot see this. Whether even or uneven lines are displayed a complete picture is formed every time.
That is also the reason why broadcasters would require double the bandwidth should they broadcast in 1080p as oppose to 1080i.
This is also where the 50Hz or 100Hz signal processors play such an important roll. If it doesn't process the image fast enough then you have motion blur on fast displaying movies.

720p works on a resolution of 1280x720 which means that 1280 lines horizontally and 720 lines vertically are displayed simultaneously. All lines, even and uneven line are displayed together, therefore, that would mean 1280x720= 921600 lines are displayed at any one time. Or in the case of plasma, that's a total of 1365x768= 1 048 320 lines being displayed simultaneously.

My question is this. If 1080i displays a complete picture using only 1 036 800 lines at a time as opposed to 2 073 600 for 1080p then 1080i cannot be considered FHD because it is actually displaying less lines than the plasma HD 720p (1 048 320 lines). So shouldn't 1080i actually be considered as HD and not FHD (1080p)? Because of the amount of lines that 1080p displays, it would also be displaying much more pixels in the same area, giving you a much higher definition image.
I hope I'm understanding this correctly because it's very confusing.

 

[PostmanPot]

Not sure if it's entirely correct.

And lines = pixels.

To summarise what is important for average Joe to know:

1080p > 720p > 1080i

And

Full 1080p experience is only of benefit at x size and y viewing distance, according to the expert chart mybroadband.co.za/photos/showphoto.php/photo/13804/title/resolution-chart/cat/900 (similarly one would need to sit close to notice the resolution/"detail" benefit Roman froths about about 1080i, which is a steaming pile as everyone takes entry plasma over entry LCD for HD PVR/DSTV).

And

Placebo effect is a beautiful thing, this is why "blind" tests are so important. Neither Roman or myself can provide blind tests, however I can provide numbers (30+) of forumites who've chosen 720p entry plasma (Series 4) over 1080p entry LCD (Series 5) particularly for HD PVR 1080i, and even in some cases 1080p.

HD PVR used to be 720p mostly, until they changed. Someone on the DSTV forums mentioned they would start using 720p again, seems to be a pipe dream though. Oh well, doesn't concern me since motion artefacting is less problematic on entry plasma than entry LCD, as everyone else has noticed and subsequently chosen entry plasma over entry LCD.

 

[Magandroid]

Not sure if it's entirely correct.

And lines = pixels.

To summarise what is important for average Joe to know:

1080p > 720p > 1080i

And

Full 1080p experience is only of benefit at x size and y viewing distance, according to the expert chart mybroadband.co.za/photos/showphoto.php/photo/13804/title/resolution-chart/cat/900 (similarly one would need to sit close to notice the resolution/"detail" benefit Roman froths about about 1080i, which is a steaming pile as everyone takes entry plasma over entry LCD for HD PVR/DSTV).

And

Placebo effect is a beautiful thing, this is why "blind" tests are so important. Neither Roman or myself can provide blind tests, however I can provide numbers (30+) of forumites who've chosen 720p entry plasma (Series 4) over 1080p entry LCD (Series 5) particularly for HD PVR 1080i, and even in some cases 1080p.

HD PVR used to be 720p mostly, until they changed. Someone on the DSTV forums mentioned they would start using 720p again, seems to be a pipe dream though. Oh well, doesn't concern me since motion artefacting is less problematic on entry plasma than entry LCD, as everyone else has noticed and subsequently chosen entry plasma over entry LCD.

I too went with the plasma as per the advice from these forums (and I'm not sorry I did) and also saw the noticeable motion blur on the LCD panels. I'm just trying to get a better understanding of the technology as some of the (heated?) discussions are well above my understanding.

 

[Magandroid]

Not sure if it's entirely correct.

And lines = pixels.

What do you mean by lines = pixels. I thought the lines are made up of pixels and that's why it's called pixel line. I would guess that the more lines you have, 1080p vs 720p, the smaller the pixel size per line, therefore giving you more in depth or higher definition.
Sorry for my lack of knowledge here.

 

[PostmanPot]

Yes pixels make up a line on either a vertical/horizontal plane. You weren't wrong, just better to refer them as pixels.

 

[Deezil]

Not all of your "lines" are wrong ... a line is made up of pixels and once you have your horizontals there is no need to redraw the verticals. Let's fix your first paragraph ...

1080p (progressive scanning) means that the resolution is 1920x1080 which in turn means that there are 1920 lines running horizontally and 1080 lines vertically. This means that a total of, 1920x1080=2 073 600 pixels [-]of resolution[/-] are displayed on the screen. In the case of 1080p, every line, vertical and horizontal (if you have the one, you have the other ... no need to really differentiate), as well as every even and odd numbered line (you've added this to differentiate from 1080i which is fine) is displayed [-]together with[/-] creating a total of 2 073 600 pixels being displayed simultaneously.

kapish?

 

[Magandroid]

Not all of your "lines" are wrong ... a line is made up of pixels and once you have your horizontals there is no need to redraw the verticals. Let's fix your first paragraph .
kapish?

So in the case of 1080p, 1 horizontal line is made up of 1920 pixels? Then my case, my 51" hd plasma which is 1365x768 only has 1365 pixels running across that massive screen. How big are these pixels then. I would have thought that they would be minute in size. If I should measure my screen across and divide it by 1365, then measure it down and divide it by 768, then I should be able to work out the size of pixel? Is this assumption correct?

 

[PostmanPot]

So in the case of 1080p, 1 horizontal line is made up of 1920 pixels? Then my case, my 51" hd plasma which is 1365x768 only has 1365 pixels running across that massive screen. How big are these pixels then. I would have thought that they would be minute in size. If I should measure my screen across and divide it by 1365, then measure it down and divide it by 768, then I should be able to work out the size of pixel? Is this assumption correct?

The general term is "PPI" - pixels per inch. Of course, 1080p screen will have a significantly higher PPI than a 720p screen.

Obviously it's not important to worry about it, due to the size-res-distance conundrum, but I understand you're using it in your thought processes about stuff, so not implying you're worrying about it.

 

[Deezil]

Is this assumption correct?

Perfect

As mentioned don't worry about it ... yes the pixels on your 51" HD ready (1365x768) TV is bigger than those on a 51" Full HD (1920x1080) TV but on the other hand they are much smaller than the pixels on the square box TV you grew up with ... did it ever bother you back then how big the pixels were?

 

[Roman4604]

If 1080i displays a complete picture using only 1 036 800 lines at a time as opposed to 2 073 600 for 1080p then 1080i cannot be considered FHD because it is actually displaying less lines than the plasma HD 720p (1 048 320 lines). So shouldn't 1080i actually be considered as HD and not FHD (1080p)? Because of the amount of lines that 1080p displays, it would also be displaying much more pixels in the same area, giving you a much higher definition image.
I hope I'm understanding this correctly because it's very confusing.

I think what you misunderstand is, on modern FHD TVs the signal recieved and what is displayed are not neccessarily the same thing. A flatscreen FHD TV is more akin to a digital computer unlike old dumb CRTs which just display the incoming signal 'as is'.

A 1080i signal is composed of 1080 discrete lines of (1920 pixel) information, but to save bw the transmission of odd & even lines are staggard (sent alternately). So does this mean in any cycle (Hz) only half the lines are displayed (i.e. the ones recieved in that cycle, only either odd or even)? No, TVs displays all 1080 lines, but wouldnt that mean half the lines are stale (1/50th of a sec old)? Yes if the TV displayed them 'as is', but thats not what happens.

Before displaying, the TV's signal processor runs the stale lines through a complex mathematical routine comparing them to history & their 'fresh' neighbours, to predict what they should look like 1/50th of a sec into the future. So in each cycle you're viewing the full 1080 lines, half of them real (recieved) and half of them mathematically derived/altered (if required). This process is know as de-interlacing.

Each year the performance of signal processors increase & the de-interlacing routines are improved. As mentioned, its reached a point where its virtually impossible to distinguish the difference between 1080p & 1080i, even with fast motion.

 

[Lupus]

Roman, you do realise you are referring to the TV's "engine" basically the software and hardware in place to handle postprocessing of various things, some of the newer higher end brands have really great engines that actually do a pretty good job of deinterlacing, noise reduction upscaling that even a 540i image will look impressive in comparison to older TVs.
In regards to resolution though 1080i is inferior to 1080p and in some circumstances 720p due to the amount of pixels actually displayed and the fact that it is interlaced, which can leave a grainy image, it is one of the reasons why 1080i is actually classified as HD ready resolution not FHD as it's not. The fact that it is also technically limited to 25hz to 30hz due to it's interlacing will cause issues with fast motion, sometimes judder and various other issues. Also your arguments about not being able to see a difference is probably true, but it's more due to your TV's engine then anything else.
If your TV's engine is subpar then you will not see what you are seeing now, also I'm not sure how you see the difference between 720p and 1080p when it comes to the new Reality engines on the Samsungs, as I'm honestly not.

 

[PostmanPot]

Also your arguments about not being able to see a difference is probably true, but it's more due to your TV's engine then anything else.

Yeah, we all know Samsung C Series 5 are renowned for their advanced engines.

Basically Roman will sit close to point out any flaw in amount of pixels/lack of pixels argument.

But he sits back when testing for judder...

 

[ajax]

This thread has gotten derailed. It is for posting bargains, not?

 

[PostmanPot]

This thread has gotten derailed. It is for posting bargains, not?

Yeah... And for newcomers inevitably posting questions, and debates inevitably ensuing.