LED vs Plasma

[SauRoNZA]

If I hadn't bought a TV last year this is what I would buy for the best bang to buck right now.

http://www.catsdigital.co/televisio.../samsung-51e8000-full-hd-smart-plasma-tv.html

It's basically last year's model going for cheap cheap and costs only R2k more than I paid for mine which doesn't have the anti-reflective coating.


Get it while you can, while there is still stock because it's pretty much the best TV you can buy for that kind of money.

 

[Maverick Jester]

Maverick Jester - You've touched on my point. I will be using this screen for PC-related tasks - gaming, web browsing, etc. Therefore, response time is important, but the TVs don't list it.

GTG response time is not standardised, and is not the most accurate of measures for a display (a TV providing a 5ms response time can exhibit more lag than a TV providing an 8ms response time as an example). Uniformity of the response time is a better indicative measure, but not one that is provided. That, and input lag (which is a greater inhibitor I feel).

Also, the human eye cannot deduce any perceptible blur on displays outputting at 60Hz, below 10ms response time.

Oh, wait, you mentioned that TVs don't list it... Which model are you looking at specifically? I have never had trouble finding this before.

 

[Maverick Jester]

If I hadn't bought a TV last year this is what I would buy for the best bang to buck right now.

http://www.catsdigital.co/televisio.../samsung-51e8000-full-hd-smart-plasma-tv.html

It's basically last year's model going for cheap cheap and costs only R2k more than I paid for mine which doesn't have the anti-reflective coating.


Get it while you can, while there is still stock because it's pretty much the best TV you can buy for that kind of money.

Good recommendation there. Gorgeous display, viewed this at Cats in Sandton.

 

[Drifter]

Samsung Plasma's are awesome.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Samsung Plasma's are awesome.

Not all Plasma's are made equally.

Even Samsung make some cheap and nasty units...which aren't awesome.


Which is why I often recommend to people to rather buy last year's high specification model for about the same money and not fall for the tricks and troubles they added to this year's model.

Don't think about SmartTV and all that rubbish when buying a TV, worry only about image quality.

SmartTV and all that other crap means nothing if the base display sucks.

 

[Maverick Jester]

Note that 120hz on a PC screen is something else, as the input can be a genuine 120hz therefore offering a 1:1 ratio.

You are referring to 3D correct?

 

[SauRoNZA]

You are referring to 3D correct?

Not 3D specifically no.

PC's don't have the same standard as TV. Therefore a graphics card that is capable of a genuine 120hz output can do that to a genuine 120hz screen.

TV's have a 60hz standard and therefore most of them have a native output of 60hz, which is often supplemented with additional frames and interpolation technology to add more frames to the 60hz signal to make it 120hz.

Here's some reading for you to better explain why 120hz doesn't really matter.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2379206,00.asp

 

[Maverick Jester]

Not 3D specifically no.

PC's don't have the same standard as TV. Therefore a graphics card that is capable of a genuine 120hz output can do that to a genuine 120hz screen.

TV's have a 60hz standard and therefore most of them have a native output of 60hz, which is often supplemented with additional frames and interpolation technology to add more frames to the 60hz signal to make it 120hz.

Here's some reading for you to better explain why 120hz doesn't really matter.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2379206,00.asp

No, I understand that TV's and monitors have different standards due to the outputting sources involved, and that 120Hz does not really matter. But there are a few TV's capable of displaying at 120Hz. It is used to output 3D content, and one can output 2D at 120Hhz via refresh rate overclocking, hence the question.

 

[Bl1zz4rd]

So... not only does the Auto Motion Plus tech interpolate, but the 120/240hz does too? Am I correct in saying that if I, for instance, get a Samsung 120hz LED TV that has AMP on as standard, both things will be contributing towards image interpolation simultaneously? If yes, why on earth is that necessary? Again, I've never noticed blur on my 60hz LCD and never wanted something another TV has, so this epic manufacturer quest for increased smoothness (that I believe I already have) all seems rather ridiculous.

SauRoNZA - I will definitely be turning off all that processing too. I just want the basic 60hz without interpolation. The thing is, I don't see how I can lower the hz. Is there a way to do so? It'd be sad if I was able to turn off AMP, but because of the fact that I bought a 120hz TV (not many 60hz ones available anymore, and not many sans 3D and Smart TV capabilities) I still experienced the soap opera effect. A lesser degree is not good enough, I want it gone completely. That plasma does look awesome, but unfortunately, if you look further back in this thread, it's more than twice my budget.

jeinnor30 - I won't be getting a plasma because of the reflections and possible IR and burn-in. It's just too much effort. I want to just be able to watch it without being concerned and annoyed. Which is fair. All TVs should allow for that, especially considering the costs of some higher-end models.

Nice that you were able to turn off AMP. Did it rectify the picture completely? What hz was that TV?

Not too sure why the colors would be different with LEDs. LEDs are LCDs with backlights. If they indeed do have that impact, then surely merely turning off the LED backlight would fix this.

Maverick Jester - If GTG isn't the best, but the better specifications aren't listed, then GTG is the best I have. At least as far as PC monitors go. Now, with LED TVs, all I have is hz. I know that my Samsung LCD is 2ms, but knowing that the TV in which I'm interested in has a refresh rate of 60hz doesn't really help me compare the two and affirm that the TV will be OK for gaming purposes.

 

[Maverick Jester]

So... not only does the Auto Motion Plus tech interpolate, but the 120/240hz does too? Am I correct in saying that if I, for instance, get a Samsung 120hz LED TV that has AMP on as standard, both things will be contributing towards image interpolation simultaneously? If yes, why on earth is that necessary? Again, I've never noticed blur on my 60hz LCD and never wanted something another TV has, so this epic manufacturer quest for increased smoothness (that I believe I already have) all seems rather ridiculous.

Auto Motion Plus and its various equivalents ARE 120/240Hz. This is motion interpolation.

SauRoNZA - I will definitely be turning off all that processing too. I just want the basic 60hz without interpolation. The thing is, I don't see how I can lower the hz. Is there a way to do so? It'd be sad if I was able to turn off AMP, but because of the fact that I bought a 120hz TV (not many 60hz ones available anymore, and not many sans 3D and Smart TV capabilities) I still experienced the soap opera effect. A lesser degree is not good enough, I want it gone completely. That plasma does look awesome, but unfortunately, if you look further back in this thread, it's more than twice my budget.

Again, disabling AMP will sort you out.

jeinnor30 - I won't be getting a plasma because of the reflections and possible IR and burn-in. It's just too much effort. I want to just be able to watch it without being concerned and annoyed. Which is fair. All TVs should allow for that, especially considering the costs of some higher-end models.

Plasma burn-in is a non-issue on modern panels. Don't let it put you off.

Not too sure why the colors would be different with LEDs. LEDs are LCDs with backlights. If they indeed do have that impact, then surely merely turning off the LED backlight would fix this.

A few reasons, but again depends on the quality of the panel. One cannot simply turn off the LED backlight though.

Maverick Jester - If GTG isn't the best, but the better specifications aren't listed, then GTG is the best I have. At least as far as PC monitors go. Now, with LED TVs, all I have is hz. I know that my Samsung LCD is 2ms, but knowing that the TV in which I'm interested in has a refresh rate of 60hz doesn't really help me compare the two and affirm that the TV will be OK for gaming purposes.

Understandable re the availability of input lag and GTG. However- as mentioned before, you will not see any lag on a TV set with a response time <10ms and a refresh rate of 60Hz. The human eye cannot perceive it. So don't let it be too much of a deciding factor for you.

If you search the manufacturers site, I am sure that you should be able to find the input lag for said TV.

 

[SauRoNZA]

No, I understand that TV's and monitors have different standards due to the outputting sources involved, and that 120Hz does not really matter. But there are a few TV's capable of displaying at 120Hz. It is used to output 3D content, and one can output 2D at 120Hhz via refresh rate overclocking, hence the question.

Yeah there are a few for sure, but the point was really that it ultimately doesn't matter (for regular TV that has a 60hz input).

So it's marketing mumbo jumbo that nobody should really worry themselves about.

 

[Maverick Jester]

Yeah there are a few for sure, but the point was really that it ultimately doesn't matter (for regular TV that has a 60hz input).

So it's marketing mumbo jumbo that nobody should really worry themselves about.

Agreed I think we did point this out about 3 or so pages back...

 

[SauRoNZA]

SauRoNZA - I will definitely be turning off all that processing too. I just want the basic 60hz without interpolation. The thing is, I don't see how I can lower the hz. Is there a way to do so? It'd be sad if I was able to turn off AMP, but because of the fact that I bought a 120hz TV (not many 60hz ones available anymore, and not many sans 3D and Smart TV capabilities) I still experienced the soap opera effect. A lesser degree is not good enough, I want it gone completely. That plasma does look awesome, but unfortunately, if you look further back in this thread, it's more than twice my budget.

You Sir need a Plasma, then you'll have none of these worries.

jeinnor30 - I won't be getting a plasma because of the reflections and possible IR and burn-in. It's just too much effort. I want to just be able to watch it without being concerned and annoyed. Which is fair. All TVs should allow for that, especially considering the costs of some higher-end models.

There might be some lower priced models with anti-glare...or you might find that the glossy models are also perfectly acceptable for your uses.

Best to find out yourself.

Not too sure why the colors would be different with LEDs. LEDs are LCDs with backlights. If they indeed do have that impact, then surely merely turning off the LED backlight would fix this.

It's largely because LED TV's are Edge lit and often what happens, especially in darker scenes is that you get inconsistent lighting from the edges (brighter) towards the centre (darker). You can't just turn off the backlighting...because then you'll see nothing at all.

So in many cases higher end LCD's with their more consistent CFL tubes can in fact be better than lower end LED based LCD's.

Easy test for this is using something like Star Wars in the space fighter scenes where it's predominantly black (starry sky) and watching this in a dark room so you can see the backlight consistency.

Maverick Jester - If GTG isn't the best, but the better specifications aren't listed, then GTG is the best I have. At least as far as PC monitors go. Now, with LED TVs, all I have is hz. I know that my Samsung LCD is 2ms, but knowing that the TV in which I'm interested in has a refresh rate of 60hz doesn't really help me compare the two and affirm that the TV will be OK for gaming purposes.

To be honest I wouldn't even look at those figures...they are paper values with little to no bearing on the real world.

Look with your OWN EYES, not what you've read on a piece of paper and decide if works for you or not.

ALL the TV's in your price range will more than likely be 60hz so you don't even need to worry about that either. Which was mostly my point regarding the 120hz+...it's inconsequential to your needs and ultimately doesn't matter.


Make up your own mind. You might love LED for a number of reasons that I despise them.

 

[Rickster]

Thread still going?

Geez...

 

[Bl1zz4rd]

Rickster - I'm finding this really interesting, as I'm sure a number of others are too.

SauRoNZA and Maverick Jester - Not too sure what you're saying about mentioning that 120hz is irrelevant and how it is. If it's not true 120hz, fine, but it is interpolating the frames, so it's definitely something I want to avoid or disable. Don't see how a 60hz input negates the need to take the increased hz into consideration.

SauRoNZA - It does boil down to testing, I agree. The problem with that is that I won't be able to test in the appropriate conditions to make sure. So it's definitely a risk and the best I can do is get information from others who have had the opportunity to test in their own homes. Hence my starting this thread. Yes, likes and dislikes are biased, but if they're substantiated, they can very often be useful, at least to me.

The above applies to all 3 things you mentioned. The lighting in stores won't replicate my lighting at home, thereby not allowing me to test the plasma reflection and LED backlight uniformity, and I won't be able to test games to check whether the response rate is sufficient.

I think a good idea would be if I began linking TVs I'm considering, in order to gauge responses. These are the first two I've found thus far (prices aren't exact, I chose random stores to link to for now):

http://purpleflytrading.co.za/shopping/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=277839

http://purpleflytrading.co.za/shopping/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=275879

 

[Roman4604]

So... not only does the Auto Motion Plus tech interpolate, but the 120/240hz does too? Am I correct in saying that if I, for instance, get a Samsung 120hz LED TV that has AMP on as standard, both things will be contributing towards image interpolation simultaneously? If yes, why on earth is that necessary?

I dont think you're understanding it right. Firstly Auto Motion Plus is just Samsung's term for interpolation.

While LCD/LED TVs only accept up to 60Hz (fps) input, their display output Hz (real or derived) varies depending on capabilities. Previously in the LCD TV era, > 60 Hz output meant interpolation to create the additional frame(s), but today with LED back/edge light technology things are a bit more complex.

For instance a top of the line Samsung ES8000 LED is rated at 960Hz (derived CMR) with 60Hz input, but it doesn't really interpolate 15 extra frames (not that it would have the processing horsepower). It probably generates 1-3 additional interpolated frames based on settings (Samsung doesn't disclose), so what happens during the 12 other sub-frames?

Nothing, the LEDs are turned off for 2 reasons. To hide the LCD panel's slow transition speeds, and more importantly to reset the viewer's frame image retention. So you end up with something like the following during one 1/60th of a sec;

[O][1][2][3] where [O]=original frame,=blank frame,[N]=interpolated frame

 

[Maverick Jester]

SauRoNZA and Maverick Jester - Not too sure what you're saying about mentioning that 120hz is irrelevant and how it is. If it's not true 120hz, fine, but it is interpolating the frames, so it's definitely something I want to avoid or disable. Don't see how a 60hz input negates the need to take the increased hz into consideration.

Not sure what you mean by this? The display is a true 120Hz display, but is irrelevant as your source scan rate will be 60hz. The additional frames needed are artificial frames inserted via motion interpolation. You need to take this into consideration to avoid the "soap opera" effect. Mentioned this a few pages back.

The above applies to all 3 things you mentioned. The lighting in stores won't replicate my lighting at home, thereby not allowing me to test the plasma reflection and LED backlight uniformity, and I won't be able to test games to check whether the response rate is sufficient.

Try out Cats Digital, they have decent viewing areas with far better ambient lighting setups than the likes of Game. Cannot for the life of me remember the name of the other place you can try out, PostmanPot can help you out with that

Of the two TV's you have looked at- I would recommend the UA40ES5600. The LA40D550 is two years old and the 50Hz refresh rate might be a stumbling block for your PC use. But I'm also sure that most graphics cards can output the signal at 1920x1080p50.

 

[Maverick Jester]

I dont think you're understanding it right. Firstly Auto Motion Plus is just Samsung's term for interpolation.

While LCD/LED TVs only accept up to 60Hz (fps) input, their display output Hz (real or derived) varies depending on capabilities. Previously in the LCD TV era, > 60 Hz output meant interpolation to create the additional frame(s), but today with LED back/edge light technology things are a bit more complex.

For instance a top of the line Samsung ES8000 LED is rated at 960Hz (derived CMR) with 60Hz input, but it doesn't really interpolate 15 extra frames (not that it would have the processing horsepower). It probably generates 1-3 additional interpolated frames based on settings (Samsung doesn't disclose), so what happens during the 12 other sub-frames?

Nothing, the LEDs are turned off for 2 reasons. To hide the LCD panel's slow transition speeds, and more importantly to reset the viewer's frame image retention. So you end up with something like the following during one 1/60th of a sec;

[O][1][2][3] where [O]=original frame,=blank frame,[N]=interpolated frame

Just wanted to mention though- the "960" that Samsung advertises is not measured in Hz, but is a CMR rating based on the combination of interpolation and strobed backlighting being used. But I do agree that they probably perform frame insertion in that manner.

 

[Roman4604]

Just wanted to mention though- the "960" that Samsung advertises is not measured in Hz, but is a CMR rating based on the combination of interpolation and strobed backlighting being used.

Yes we all know its the equivalent of, not real Hz, but that hasn't stopped Samsung from referring to Hz in some of their advertising e.g. see 2nd bullet point on this page ... http://www.samsung.com/africa_en/consumer/tv-audio-video/television/led-tv/UA55ES6200RXXA. Their logos even had it ...

The LA40D550 is two years old and the 50Hz refresh rate might be a stumbling block for your PC use.

You dont get 50Hz only TVs, they're just advertised as such since we're an ex-PAL region. My one year older LA40C530 does 60Hz no problem.

 

[Space_Chief]

LOL, speaking of TV's, did anyone see Panasonic's recent ad?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KefJOPy7MvU