legal advice needed

[paap]

Hi, we sold a property a few years ago, and there was no COC (certificate of compliance) provided to the buyer on the day of transfer of ownership.

We have instructed the conveyancer to send people to do it on our behalf. prior transfer date and two weeks after the transfer, he forgot on both occasions.

A few months later, the buyer made major changes to the property, and basically, wirings and plugs are all over the place in the roof.

A few years later, recently, he demands a COC from us. And he said all the illegal wiring was done by the seller when he bought the property.

The estimated cost of a COC, including rewiring the illegal wires, is huge.

We want to know who should be paying for this COC.

Over the years we couldn't perform a COC due to the change in wiring the new owner did. He had partitioned that property from a large single shop into two smaller shops, but one month ago he dismantled the partition wall to make a single shop again.

We know there's conveyancing negligence from our attorney firm, but that's all we know.

please help.

 

[acidrain]

How long ago did the trasnfer occur as you state a few years. Latent defects can only be claimed within 3 years.

CoC's generally are valid only for 2 years from issue, so anything you would provide them now would likely not be valid anyways.

I'm surprised the transfer went through without it.

As for the conveyancers forgetting, it is not their job to have a coc done but only to ensure compliance of the property is met before transfer so can't really blame them for not arranging. Arranging this would've been the responsibility of the estate agent, or if you didn't have one, yourself.

Either way, regardless of what advice you get here, you will likely need an attorney.

 

[TheMightyQuin]

A few months later, the buyer made major changes to the property, and basically, wirings and plugs are all over the place in the roof.

A few years later, recently, he demands a COC from us. And he said all the illegal wiring was done by the seller when he bought the property.

Tell him: "No!"

Close thread

 

[Grubscrew]

I would speak to the conveyancer that you asked to assist with the CoC.

Legally there had to be one to do the transfer...

 

[Just_Ice]

As far as I am aware the transfer is conditional upon a CoC being part of the transfer file. If it wasn't present, the deeds office would not have lodged the transfer. My guess - the CoC was done but not provided to the buyer, and it is with the conveyancers and/or the deeds office and can be obtained from them. Either way, IMO, not you problem.

 

[paap]

Tell him: "No!"

Close thread

maybe i wasn't clear enough, the new owner did ask for coc from the beginning. then we couldn't perform due to he made changes and both of us leave as it is for a few years and now he asks again.

but the task to do a coc both prior and shortly after the transfer was instructed to our conveyancer due to some circumstance.

we are not aware that our conveyancer forgot on both accasions.

when we know and try to do a coc by ourself it's all too late as the new owner had done many alterations on wirings and plugs.

 

[paap]

How long ago did the trasnfer occur as you state a few years. Latent defects can only be claimed within 3 years.

CoC's generally are valid only for 2 years from issue, so anything you would provide them now would likely not be valid anyways.

I'm surprised the transfer went through without it.

As for the conveyancers forgetting, it is not their job to have a coc done but only to ensure compliance of the property is met before transfer so can't really blame them for not arranging. Arranging this would've been the responsibility of the estate agent, or if you didn't have one, yourself.

Either way, regardless of what advice you get here, you will likely need an attorney.

five years ago.

but the new owner did request for coc from the start, when we realised our attorney didn't do coc for us it's too late as the new owner did all the changes to the wiring and plugs.

 

[chrisc]

You cannot rectify the impossible

To have a COC inspection today is not possible due to the changes that have been made

Prepare an affidavit explaning your actions as per your original post and hand this to interested parties. Get it stamped at the SAPS

 

[paap]

As far as I am aware the transfer is conditional upon a CoC being part of the transfer file. If it wasn't present, the deeds office would not have lodged the transfer. My guess - the CoC was done but not provided to the buyer, and it is with the conveyancers and/or the deeds office and can be obtained from them. Either way, IMO, not you problem.

transfer was done in July 2020 at the height of covoid, so, maybe, many were negligent at same time.

 

[Kosmik]

You cannot rectify the impossible

To have a COC inspection today is not possible due to the changes that have been made

Prepare an affidavit explaning your actions as per your original post and hand this to interested parties. Get it stamped at the SAPS

And no COC will be valid after 5 years.

Also very interested in how this managed to get lodged in the deeds office.... unless it never was.

 

[A3@MBB]

It sounds like a conveyancer problem and not yours to fix/remedy.

 

[paap]

And no COC will be valid after 5 years.

Also very interested in how this managed to get lodged in the deeds office.... unless it never was. left is important,i don't want to confuse people

i have left one info for simplicity.

there was a private mortgage bond registered over the title deed of this property. (new owner doesn't have enough money and couldn't get a loan soon enough,it was during the height of covid era, so, the attorney office will keep the title deed untill the bond are paid off)

is there a chance we are still the owner as transfer never took place in the deeds office yet?

 

[SauRoNZA]

i have left one info for simplicity.

there was a private mortgage bond registered over the title deed of this property. (new owner doesn't have enough money and couldn't get a loan soon enough,it was during the height of covid era, so, the attorney office will keep the title deed untill the bond are paid off)

is there a chance we are still the owner as transfer never took place in the deeds office yet?

Doesn't make sense, then THEY should be owning the property and it should be at the deeds office in their name and he should be running to them with his issues not to you.

Your hands should be washed clean of this.

 

[acidrain]

five years ago.

but the new owner did request for coc from the start, when we realised our attorney didn't do coc for us it's too late as the new owner did all the changes to the wiring and plugs.

Then unlikely they will be successful with any bid of latent defects.

You could easily argue:
1. Why did it take 5 years to pick up on these issues?
2. If these issues were so bad, why did it take 5 years to rectify?
3. If the buyer really wanted the CoC, why settle the conveyancy fees if they did not secure all required documents.

They should not have done any changes prior to a coc, you can argue the possibility that their contractor did something and now wants to claim those mistakes from you.

Might still have to go the legal route but I see this as more in your favor than theirs.

 

[acidrain]

i have left one info for simplicity.

there was a private mortgage bond registered over the title deed of this property. (new owner doesn't have enough money and couldn't get a loan soon enough,it was during the height of covid era, so, the attorney office will keep the title deed untill the bond are paid off)

is there a chance we are still the owner as transfer never took place in the deeds office yet?

Even a private mortgage bond must be registered at the deeds office. Deeds office is responsible for ALL property related transaction (so includes private transactions). If it is not the transaction is not valid.

 

[The Darkness]

It’s essential to check with the Deeds Office or ask a property attorney to run a title deed check under your name to confirm who legally owns the property.
If transfer did not occur you’re still the legal owner; you need urgent legal advice, as you may be liable for ensuring compliance, but you also still own the asset; you may need to push for full transfer or unwind the transaction.

If the buyer made major changes to the wiring before a CoC was ever issued, and did not pause to have an electrician certify the system after their alterations, then they’ve interfered with the ability to issue a CoC, and would likely void any claim against you. CoCs cannot be issued retrospectively over changed, non-compliant wiring.

Engage a property attorney right away. You need formal legal advice. Preferably one who handles conveyancer malpractice.

 

[paap]

Then unlikely they will be successful with any bid of latent defects.

You could easily argue:
1. Why did it take 5 years to pick up on these issues?
2. If these issues were so bad, why did it take 5 years to rectify?
3. If the buyer really wanted the CoC, why settle the conveyancy fees if they did not secure all required documents.

They should not have done any changes prior to a coc, you can argue the possibility that their contractor did something and now wants to claim those mistakes from you.

Might still have to go the legal route but I see this as more in your favor than theirs.

if under normal circumstance we the seller would be sitting pretty and not worried too much.

however, my attorney firm has withheld our last bond payment for the past four years.

Two weeks ago the new conveyancer sent us three emails, stating the seller is liable for the coc quotation amount that is done by her firm. And she would use our bond payment to pay for that COC fee.

and that quotation amount equates to our entire last bond payment in the trust account.

she gave us 2 days and 7 days short notices to respond to her or she would order the COC to be performed according to the quotation.

and she has refused to answer our calls or make an appointment to meet her for the past two weeks.

she is determined to use our entire remaining bond payment (ten time of a normal COC cost) to settle against the new owners COC.

we did told her about we can't pay for the changes made on wirings by the new owner and we told her the bond payment should be independent if coc issues and should be release. (in the quotation, the wiring material cost along was at 40k)


she won't listen.

i can't include all of these info in the op it will confuse people.

 

[paap]

It’s essential to check with the Deeds Office or ask a property attorney to run a title deed check under your name to confirm who legally owns the property.
If transfer did not occur you’re still the legal owner; you need urgent legal advice, as you may be liable for ensuring compliance, but you also still own the asset; you may need to push for full transfer or unwind the transaction.

If the buyer made major changes to the wiring before a CoC was ever issued, and did not pause to have an electrician certify the system after their alterations, then they’ve interfered with the ability to issue a CoC, and would likely void any claim against you. CoCs cannot be issued retrospectively over changed, non-compliant wiring.

Engage a property attorney right away. You need formal legal advice. Preferably one who handles conveyancer malpractice.

the core issue is the attorney firm would be hold liable by the new owner as he is also a victim of having no coc upon transfer and the the new conveyancer is making a settlement to the new owner in sellers expense by awarding sellers last bond payment to the new owner in the name of paying off a coc.

the quotation amount of a coc done by the firm is the same amount of the bond payment in the trust account.

the firm has withheld our last bond payment for four years.

two days ago,she did allow us to do a second opinion coc quotation by the seller, but this will only delay the process and not going change the outcome.

 

[Scooby_Doo]

I would stop interacting with them if I was you. Blockty block.

 

[paap]

I would stop interacting with them if I was you. Blockty block.

but the attorney firm has withheld our last bond payment in the trust account.

she is determined to award our entire remaining bond money to the new owner otherwise the new owner will sue her firm and likely will win a substantial compensation.