legal advice needed

paap said:
for the last two weeks we're facing a similar situation except our bill for firm's coc quotation is at R59000, same amount as the remainder of sellers sale's money that was withheld by the firm. even now the firm granted the seller to do his owns coc quotation the estimated coc should still be huge.
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And the lawyer fee to fight it will also be at least another R50k. And the seller is not going to get away with not paying for the COC, since it is stated in the OTP that the seller will have the COCs done before transfer can happens.
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
The OTP states that the seller must provide a COC. It was nice of them to let you do the COC the 1st time, you should have listened to them and have it done then. You did not have it done initially, so now it has to be done long after the buyer took occupation. It was in your best interest to do it sooner, but you delayed. Is the buyer admitting doing to the electrical changes? Do you have evidence of the changes made? You can lawyer up and try to fight this, but you failed to get the COC, so the attorney can legally pay for the COCs to be done from the sale money.
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we did ask our conveyancer to do coc on our behalf and he accepted and then forgot about it.

the buyer admitted he has done partition and said all wirings he did are now reinstated in its original position. the main issue is it's hard to prove who did these illegal wirings.
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
The OTP states that the seller must provide a COC. It was nice of them to let you do the COC the 1st time, you should have listened to them and have it done then. You did not have it done initially, so now it has to be done long after the buyer took occupation. It was in your best interest to do it sooner, but you delayed. Is the buyer admitting doing to the electrical changes? Do you have evidence of the changes made? You can lawyer up and try to fight this, but you failed to get the COC, so the attorney can legally pay for the COCs to be done from the sale money.
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We did ask our conveyancer to do COC on our behalf, and he accepted and then forgot about it.

The buyer admitted he had done partition and said all wirings he did are now reinstated in their original position. The main issue is it's hard to prove who did these illegal wirings.

And recently our new conveyancer, in the email sent to us, implied these illegal wirings are done by the seller and declared the seller is liable for the amount stated on the COC quotation. (she did not have proof)
 
@paap can you just let me know who owns the property? is it registered in this new owners name already, as in 5 years ago?

1) you are going to need to seek legal advice because for some odd reason this attorney is now withholding your money? I don't understand how they have access to your bond since you don't own the property, you sold it 5 years ago? this is confusing

2) a coc is not a requirement unless it is stipulated in your OTP

3) a coc is valid indefinitely unless changes are made to any wiring or you transfer ownership, then it must be within 2 years. Obviously it can be removed in the OTP

4) the person who bought your property 5 years ago has changed the wiring, so now you cannot in all fairness conduct a coc on goodwill because of his alterations which could adversely affect the price. He has obviously messed around with the wiring because otherwise he wouldn't ask for you to conduct this coc with a price of R40k

5) I don't know what you have admitted, but you can offer a goodwill gesture of a normal coc price, eg. R1,500 (let's say that's what an electrician would have charged if all the wiring was 100%) never go higher than a normal call out otherwise you are admitting guilt or problems etc. That offer which would be non negotiable must be presented to this conveyancer, also mention to them that if they do not accept this then we will have to go to litigation and this will drag on for years as they know. You must always say that to your knowledge the wiring of the property was all legal.

6) going to another lawyer is going to cost you thousands... be prepared
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
You all misunderstand, he is receiving money from the buyer`s bond repayments. Normally the OTP will state that you must supply the buyer with the COCs before transfer. He is still the legal owner. There is probably an occupational rent stated in the contract, as all contracts have it. Legally the buyer is renting the property until transfer, so the buyer must still supply the COCs. I would not get a lawyer, it is going to cost a lot more.
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Paying occupational rent for 5 years?
 
Wrath of Khan MD said:
@paap can you just let me know who owns the property? is it registered in this new owners name already, as in 5 years ago?

1) you are going to need to seek legal advice because for some odd reason this attorney is now withholding your money? I don't understand how they have access to your bond since you don't own the property, you sold it 5 years ago? this is confusing

2) a coc is not a requirement unless it is stipulated in your OTP

3) a coc is valid indefinitely unless changes are made to any wiring or you transfer ownership, then it must be within 2 years. Obviously it can be removed in the OTP

4) the person who bought your property 5 years ago has changed the wiring, so now you cannot in all fairness conduct a coc on goodwill because of his alterations which could adversely affect the price. He has obviously messed around with the wiring because otherwise he wouldn't ask for you to conduct this coc with a price of R40k

5) I don't know what you have admitted, but you can offer a goodwill gesture of a normal coc price, eg. R1,500 (let's say that's what an electrician would have charged if all the wiring was 100%) never go higher than a normal call out otherwise you are admitting guilt or problems etc. That offer which would be non negotiable must be presented to this conveyancer, also mention to them that if they do not accept this then we will have to go to litigation and this will drag on for years as they know. You must always say that to your knowledge the wiring of the property was all legal.

6) going to another lawyer is going to cost you thousands... be prepared
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coc quotation is at 59k.

yes, coc is required in our otp.

it's like loan offered by the seller, the transfer will go ahead and new owner pays monthly bond repayment ,and attorney office will keep new owner's title deed untill he paid everything he owed.

ownership transferred to new owner five years ago.

both the new owner and new conveyancer said the alterations the new owner did has been restored what is in the quotation is seller's responsibility ie seller made those illegal wirings in the roof.

though, they don't have evidence, but so do we.

we only can prove it was made into two shops from one and the interior of the shop has changed. we can't be certain of conditions of wirings lies above the ceiling in the roof.

and the new conveyancer has withheld our money,so, her opinion is decisive. she won't answer my calls.
 
paap said:
coc quotation is at 59k.

yes, coc is required in our otp.

it's like loan offered by the seller, the transfer will go ahead and new owner pays monthly bond repayment ,and attorney office will keep new owner's title deed untill he paid everything he owed.

ownership transferred to new owner five years ago.

both the new owner and new conveyancer said the alterations the new owner did has been restored what is in the quotation is seller's responsibility ie seller made those illegal wirings in the roof.

though, they don't have evidence, but so do we.

we only can prove it was made into two shops from one and the interior of the shop has changed. we can't be certain of conditions of wirings lies above the ceiling in the roof.

and the new conveyancer has withheld our money,so, her opinion is decisive. she won't answer my calls.
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This sounds like an insane setup... could they not afford a bond with the bank?
 
Yes, very weird and dodgy setup. The bottom line is the seller must have the COCs done. The seller was asked to do it 5 years ago already, but the seller refused, and is still refusing. I don`t think the seller has a case to not pay for the COCs. Best is to just pay for the COCs.
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
He can choose to ignore my advice, but then he is going to end up paying lawyer fees and the COC fees.
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He is going to pay more in lawyer fees if he takes your advice.

@OP: Lawyer up and get independent legal advice, I suspect that the buyer's claim has prescribed.
 
OP, if everything you are saying is true, you are getting scammed

STOP POSTING HERE AND GET A LAWYER!

No amount of advice will help you, you need to take urgent legal council!
 
bokka1 said:
He is going to pay more in lawyer fees if he takes your advice.

@OP: Lawyer up and get independent legal advice, I suspect that the buyer's claim has prescribed.
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So I am advising the seller not to get a lawyer, and somehow he is going to then pay more in lawyer fees? You clearly have not read or you misunderstand the situation.

The OTP says the seller must do the COCs, the seller is refusing and the transfer attorney is going to deduct the COC costs from the last payment of the buyer. It is clear this seller refused to pay for the COCs from the start, and still does not want to pay. Getting a lawyer is going to be an unneeded expense, the OTP is clear cut, the seller must pay for the COCs.
 
Acinixys said:
OP, if everything you are saying is true, you are getting scammed

STOP POSTING HERE AND GET A LAWYER!

No amount of advice will help you, you need to take urgent legal council!
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Nonsense, this seller refused to pay for the COCs from the start, and still does not want to pay for it. The OTP is clear, the seller must pay for the COC.
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
So I am advising the seller not to get a lawyer, and somehow he is going to then pay more in lawyer fees? You clearly have not read or you misunderstand the situation.

The OTP says the seller must do the COCs, the seller is refusing and the transfer attorney is going to deduct the COC costs from the last payment of the buyer. It is clear this seller refused to pay for the COCs from the start, and still does not want to pay. Getting a lawyer is going to be an unneeded expense, the OTP is clear cut, the seller must pay for the COCs.
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So you think he must pay the full R59 000? Is that your "legal" advice?
 
bokka1 said:
It is not a Deeds Office requirement for a transfer.

It is an agreement between the seller and buyer in the OTP.
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That's simply not true. COC's are a legal requirement mandated by national law or in some cases municipal law, they cannot be contracted into or out of. The deeds office will not process a transfer without them, whether it's in the OTP or not.
 
deweyzeph said:
That's simply not true. COC's are a legal requirement mandated by national law or in some cases municipal law, they cannot be contracted into or out of. The deeds office will not process a transfer without them, whether it's in the OTP or not.
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And it is in the OTP in case.
 
bokka1 said:
So you think he must pay the full R59 000? Is that your "legal" advice?
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The seller does not really have a choice, the attorney has the money and will deduct it from the sale. Of course the seller can then take legal action, but it will be futile, the seller is legally required to pay for the COC. They did ask to have it done right from the start and the seller refused. The seller has no case.
 
Benedict A55h0le not said:
The seller does not really have a choice, the attorney has the money and will deduct it from the sale. Of course the seller can then take legal action, but it will be futile, the seller is legally required to pay for the COC. They did ask to have it done right from the start and the seller refused. The seller has no case.
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We didn't refuse at the beginning.

prior to transfer and two weeks after transfer (the first time the seller was informed of the missing COC), on both occasions the conveyancer agreed to do the COC on the seller's behalf and then forgot.

Thirteen months later, the attorney firm told us the COC was still not done. By that time, it was too late to do the COC, changes being made by the new owner.

And the new owner has refused to give the seller the permission to do a COC on his property until yesterday; finally, we got his permission.

We suspect the new owner doesn't want the seller to find out he made major changes.
 
paap said:
We didn't refuse at the beginning.

prior to transfer and two weeks after transfer (the first time the seller was informed of the missing COC), on both occasions the conveyancer agreed to do the COC on the seller's behalf and then forgot.

Thirteen months later, the attorney firm told us the COC was still not done. By that time, it was too late to do the COC, changes being made by the new owner.

And the new owner has refused to give the seller the permission to do a COC on his property until yesterday; finally, we got his permission.

We suspect the new owner doesn't want the seller to find out he made major changes.
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You still haven't explained how the transfer was able to go through the deeds office without the COC.
 
If any previous CoC would have expired by now, get the new owner to do one and agree to split the costs.
 
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