I think the DA is fine where it is: an opposition party that doesn't have a majority rule. The problem is the ANC who commands 70% of the vote by simply pulling strings in its alliance partners. The ANC ignores everyone else (including the opposition's whining) and even ignores the rules of democracy as it pleases, because the ANC knows it is guaranteed majority votes as long as it keeps the alliance partners happy. Enter Jacob Zuma: even if the tit does not become the next president (which in all likelihood he will), the ANC is using him to ensure the alliance partners are behind the ANC. it's called politicking and it is nothing more than ensuring the vote goes the way of the ANC. We desperately need more representation of everyone in the country, and that can only happen once the ANC is no longer structured inside an alliance. Otherwise, look at Zim to see what destruction a single all powerful party is capable of.
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Leon: ANC can't do what it wants, when it wants
- Thread starter jontyB
- Start date
Let me correct the typo in your subject:
"Leon: ANC can do what it wants, when it wants"
Amen.
Well, currently I believe the problem in the governance of South Africa comes from the fact that the following have occurred.
1) Members of Parliament and National Council of Provinces are not directly elected by the citizens. The party picks its reps and you vote for the party. This means that there is little accountability to individual members.
2) One party controls majority of the vote. It has no need to placate other parties who directly contest elections. (It merely has to keep its own members happy)
3) Government agencies and civil service have been "transformed". A large portion of the direction of these agencies are high up members of the majority party. Not professional civil servants but professional politicians. Their retention and advancement depends on their position within the party, hence if they anger the party, they are out. This creates a position where party loyalty overrides all other concerns.
4) Isolation of leadership. The people on the top positions of these organizations have completely lost touch with the lower echelons. Amongst the things that this results in is that when additional funds are allocated for salaries it is eaten up at the top of the organization. For example in one takes the top five police officials and combine their yearly salaries and benefits packages you will see that you could have an additional 70 police officers. Is Jackie Selebi and his deputy directors more useful than 70 police officers? Not to my mind. Of course the directors do need to be paid more, but to such a level that 5 at the top are paid more than 70 of the people who actually do the work. Of course this is even worse in the public sector.
Or consider the municipal managers who are unqualified yet earn more than the president. Why are they in place, and why are they untouchable. Patronage and lack of accountability.
The key, indeed only criteria that should be looked at when appointing those who act in the public interest should be competence and knowledge. Of course we are not the only country suffering from this, the United States is particularly beset by this affliction, (see the appointment of a horse show judge to head the disaster management organization)
South Africa is not so poor that it cannot afford to maintain itself. South Africa has the 28th largest economy in the world and is only the 26th most populous country whilst it is the 25th largest (land surface) in the world.
So what is the problem. Incompetence. The majority of the countries departments cannot make it through a financial audit. E.g. money is being stolen from the public on a vast scale.
Consider this: Is Manto the best possible person in the country to be the health minister? Is Ivy the best person to be telecommunications minister? If not, why they ministers? If they are the best our country can do, then we are all in deep trouble, for if we cannot do better than either of these it is saddening and utterly depressing.
1) Members of Parliament and National Council of Provinces are not directly elected by the citizens. The party picks its reps and you vote for the party. This means that there is little accountability to individual members.
2) One party controls majority of the vote. It has no need to placate other parties who directly contest elections. (It merely has to keep its own members happy)
3) Government agencies and civil service have been "transformed". A large portion of the direction of these agencies are high up members of the majority party. Not professional civil servants but professional politicians. Their retention and advancement depends on their position within the party, hence if they anger the party, they are out. This creates a position where party loyalty overrides all other concerns.
4) Isolation of leadership. The people on the top positions of these organizations have completely lost touch with the lower echelons. Amongst the things that this results in is that when additional funds are allocated for salaries it is eaten up at the top of the organization. For example in one takes the top five police officials and combine their yearly salaries and benefits packages you will see that you could have an additional 70 police officers. Is Jackie Selebi and his deputy directors more useful than 70 police officers? Not to my mind. Of course the directors do need to be paid more, but to such a level that 5 at the top are paid more than 70 of the people who actually do the work. Of course this is even worse in the public sector.
Or consider the municipal managers who are unqualified yet earn more than the president. Why are they in place, and why are they untouchable. Patronage and lack of accountability.
The key, indeed only criteria that should be looked at when appointing those who act in the public interest should be competence and knowledge. Of course we are not the only country suffering from this, the United States is particularly beset by this affliction, (see the appointment of a horse show judge to head the disaster management organization)
South Africa is not so poor that it cannot afford to maintain itself. South Africa has the 28th largest economy in the world and is only the 26th most populous country whilst it is the 25th largest (land surface) in the world.
So what is the problem. Incompetence. The majority of the countries departments cannot make it through a financial audit. E.g. money is being stolen from the public on a vast scale.
Consider this: Is Manto the best possible person in the country to be the health minister? Is Ivy the best person to be telecommunications minister? If not, why they ministers? If they are the best our country can do, then we are all in deep trouble, for if we cannot do better than either of these it is saddening and utterly depressing.
But from the family / friends, they were the best. It could have been worse.
xtermin8or
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Personally I'd go for whining Tony.., and im surprised more people here dont.. Whining is exactly what we on myadsl do bestWhen Tony whines theres usually good reason for it, exposing some f*** up by the current leadership, he doesnt do it for fun or publicity.. and somehow I think the DA would be a little less corrupt and more competent than the ANC.. AFAIK they doing a great job in Cape Town, and if anyone was capable of fixing the current mess our country is in due to bad leadership, it would be the DA..
But it'll never happen
hahahahaha - Tony Leon is a career politician, everything he does is for publicity, even his marriage is nothing more than a publicity stunt
Do you really think they would be less corrupt, power corrupts, as for competence - are you joking - the DA esp their leader is the most incompetent idiot on the planet - just try asking him a simple question and you have to wait for him to ask his advisors before answering - I have never seen any current Minister doing this
Vox Populi Vox Dei
High Tory
You really are the definition of an internet troll
. Where the hell do you get the information/impression that it was done for publicity.So you're admitting that the ANC is corrupt since they have a huge majority in parliament. You can't say whether the DA will be corrupt since they haven't had their day as the incumbent. What I do know is that there has been no DA related scandal since they took over Cape Town.
You're right - the Ministers don't answer the question at all.
xtermin8or
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mmm, what about Travelgate - that's what they done with a little power - imagine if they get more power
Power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolutely
yes, I have always maintained that all politicians are corrupt - but the ANC has done more for this country than any other party
No, the ANC has done a lot for the rights of the citizen. Unfortunately, it's policies haven't done much for growth of the economy, lifestyle improvement (barring cabinet members) and safety/security. Corruption has flourished, and incompetence is commonplace. This is now an achievement? How?
Travelgate was ANC, chum...
Travelgate was ANC, chum...
chiskop
Executive Member
Travelgate was all of them, buddy boy.
Accused number one, travel agent Soraya Beukes, was not present on Tuesday as she was, according to Van Vuuren, writing an exam.
Another travel agent, Nazley Lackay, was also absent because she had been hospitalised for an operation.
The remaining nine in court on Tuesday were ANC MPs Jabu Sosibo, Elizabeth Ngaleka, Mnyamezeli Booi and Maxwell Moss, former DA MPs Antoinette Versfeld and Craig Morkel, and travel agents Mpho Lebelo, Graham Geduldt and Estelle Aggujaro.
Another travel agent, Nazley Lackay, was also absent because she had been hospitalised for an operation.
The remaining nine in court on Tuesday were ANC MPs Jabu Sosibo, Elizabeth Ngaleka, Mnyamezeli Booi and Maxwell Moss, former DA MPs Antoinette Versfeld and Craig Morkel, and travel agents Mpho Lebelo, Graham Geduldt and Estelle Aggujaro.
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To be fair, what other party has been in power since we became a proper democracy?
chiskop
Executive Member
xterm didn't add the qualification that it had to be since 1994.
Must've been confused due to the amount of protection the ANC MPs were getting from The Party. Then again, if it's all of them, why does xt imply that it was the DA's failing alone? And if that's the best argument he can muster against the ANC's embarassing and seemingly endless parade of offenses, why is he even bothering?
What is the point of comparing from before then? Everyone knows what a disaster that was...
chiskop
Executive Member
So then, we agree that the ANC has done more for this country than any other party? I think that that is a sad reflection on the accomplishments of SA's non-ANC parties, more than a ringing endorsement of the ANC's success.
The ANC is where it is because there is no viable opposition to it.
The ANC is where it is because there is no viable opposition to it.
xtermin8or
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I never said it was the DA's failing alone, but all of the politicians, my argument was that one can't assume that the DA would not be corrupt, as they have already shown they are susceptible to corruption - while many ANC politicians have been exposed as corrupt - the post 94 govts have done more for the country than any other govt has done - maybe this doesn't seem so for the white population - but other race groups see and feel the difference everyday
According to Dr Pieter Mulder, after his election as leader of the FF+ this weekend, 440 thousand black households now fall into the highest income bracket of an income of over 13 thousand rand per month - they were never there before - 180 thousand white families now fall into the poorest income group earning less than 800 rand per month -
the playing fields are being levelled
HosstheBoss
Senior Member
Why should they be levelled? Why should 180 000 whites get poorer? Why take from one to give to the other? Thats not progress, thats simple realignment!
IF you bring one group up and the other group down, you're achieving bugger all, if you bring BOTH groups up, THEN you're doing something!
But it seems the statement "the playing fields are being levelled" is related to your sig! A certain kind of bias
kilps
Expert Member
Hey! someone who thinks along the same lines as me - that's why I like the British system - you've got your ordinary MPs who are elected as individuals in their constituency (and are actually held accountable - I don't even know who my MP is ... and the parliament website doesn't help me with that much either...) , you've got your House of Lords members to keep some conservative values alive - but not stop the democratic process (mind you the way their tony is acting this seems to be falling apart ...) and you've got your head of state who is not involved in politics and simply acts as a symbol of unity
Well when he spoke at my school (in front of a bunch of pretty intellectual students, parents and teachers) when he was asked what he thought of the above system he seemed pretty quick to answer (as with his other questions) - his response was that a combination of the two systems, in his opinion, is the best route
I am always curious as to the fact that parties not in power are blamed for not doing more. E.g. "What has the DA done for us?". The opposition party is not in a position to do much, it cannot propose legislation, as the legislation will be knocked down on party lines. (the ANC is very disciplined in voting).
Exterminator, do you have some linkages to back up your assertions regarding Tony Leon, a man who does represent 1,8 million voters.
PS I hope you realize those 180,000 families who have fallen into poverty, represents about 16% of all white people in South Africa. 1 in 6 of White South Africans are now living in poverty. It is not something to be proud of, or touted as an achievement.
@klips the reason why I would favour direct election of representatives is that it reduces the importance of parties and it becomes much harder for the parties to enforce voter discipline.
Unfortunately IIRC during the negotiations to for a new government it was feared (probably rightly so) is that were on to allocate representation of the seats according to population centres and groups, the ANC would enjoy an even larger majority. E.g. if you vote for a opposition party leader in Limpopo, your candidate does not win so in essence your vote does not count. In short, under such a system the voice of the majority would drown out that of minorities entirely.
Exterminator, do you have some linkages to back up your assertions regarding Tony Leon, a man who does represent 1,8 million voters.
PS I hope you realize those 180,000 families who have fallen into poverty, represents about 16% of all white people in South Africa. 1 in 6 of White South Africans are now living in poverty. It is not something to be proud of, or touted as an achievement.
@klips the reason why I would favour direct election of representatives is that it reduces the importance of parties and it becomes much harder for the parties to enforce voter discipline.
Unfortunately IIRC during the negotiations to for a new government it was feared (probably rightly so) is that were on to allocate representation of the seats according to population centres and groups, the ANC would enjoy an even larger majority. E.g. if you vote for a opposition party leader in Limpopo, your candidate does not win so in essence your vote does not count. In short, under such a system the voice of the majority would drown out that of minorities entirely.