Leon queries Mbeki crime figures

[Sneeky]

Maybe the ANC is learning from the "best" and "biggest" democracy in the world , the yanks, isn't Dick Cheney mixing the 2 ?? But of course the way the ANC is mixing politics and business leans on the crass side.

Hi iMonga
Not everything America does is correct, I am sure you will agree.

Lets take telecoms for instance. The plunder of the South African public by the state sanctioned monopoly is despicable. The share trail so far leads almost right to the top, Smuts Ngonyama.
It is blatantly obvious that we require comparable telecoms rates yet very little has been done. SNO more than 4 years overdue, Telkom monopoly extended despite it not fulfilling the contractual obligations.

We have a situation where we have decision makers, that are also personally heavily invested, influencing the pace at which we have reforms. The conflict of interest is clear and it is detremental to our economic growth as a whole. Reports indicate that if we had comparable telecoms rates we could add almost 2% extra to our economic growth stats.

The way people go on about lucrative BEE contracts, it's as if it only benefits black people. What I've observed when BEE contracts get awarded, there seems to be a white expert alongside the newly 'empowered' black politician as well. I have a feeling this is where Tony Leon is gonna fit in.

You might be spot on with Tony here and yes others also benefit from BEE deals however the overwhelming criticism for BEE and BBEEE from the minority is that the usual suspects are always benefiting, again and again. How many times must Tokyo Sexwale, Andile Ngcaba, Smuts Ngonyama, Saki Macozoma be empowered I ask you? Lets be brutally honest, the people that make the decisions as to who gets empowered end up as the people being empowered, there is something wrong with this picture.
I know the ANC is talking about this and looking at alternatives but till something else is approved this is BEE.

 

[BobbyMac]

By the way what are Tony Leon's plans after he 'bounces' out of politics ? I have a sneaky feeling he's going into be a business, will turn out to be a fat cat just like the other politicians he's so often criticised!!!

Businesses have the chance of failing and closing their doors - governments have endless supplies of money and never close their doors for business. Get your semantics right if you wish to be dissing people.

 

[BobbyMac]

Maybe the ANC is learning from the "best" and "biggest" democracy in the world , the yanks, isn't Dick Cheney mixing the 2 ?? But of course the way the ANC is mixing politics and business leans on the crass side.

The way people go on about lucrative BEE contracts, it's as if it only benefits black people. What I've observed when BEE contracts get awarded, there seems to be a white expert alongside the newly 'empowered' black politician as well. I have a feeling this is where Tony Leon is gonna fit in.

I seriously doubt Tony will go there - but what does it matter where he goes? There are plenty of uber rich BEE black people - Sexwale to name the most glaring. In any case, out of the 25 big business in this country, the government owns stakes in 8. BEE for themselves.

 

[iMonga]

Hi iMonga
Not everything America does is correct, I am sure you will agree.

Lets take telecoms for instance. The plunder of the South African public by the state sanctioned monopoly is despicable. The share trail so far leads almost right to the top, Smuts Ngonyama.
It is blatantly obvious that we require comparable telecoms rates yet very little has been done. SNO more than 4 years overdue, Telkom monopoly extended despite it not fulfilling the contractual obligations.

We have a situation where we have decision makers, that are also personally heavily invested, influencing the pace at which we have reforms. The conflict of interest is clear and it is detremental to our economic growth as a whole. Reports indicate that if we had comparable telecoms rates we could add almost 2% extra to our economic growth stats.

hence i said the way government is mixing business and politics is not clever, when it comes to telecoms I'm very very very anti Paris M but from what I know he's gonna stay in that position for a while thou. And it's not helping that government politicians own so much stock of TELKOM, because instead of thinking like civil servants now they think like shareholders and we know shareholders in general are not bothered by how a company makes money, it must just make money period.

You might be spot on with Tony here and yes others also benefit from BEE deals however the overwhelming criticism for BEE and BBEEE from the minority is that the usual suspects are always benefiting, again and again. How many times must Tokyo Sexwale, Andile Ngcaba, Smuts Ngonyama, Saki Macozoma be empowered I ask you? Lets be brutally honest, the people that make the decisions as to who gets empowered end up as the people being empowered, there is something wrong with this picture.
I know the ANC is talking about this and looking at alternatives but till something else is approved this is BEE.

Sadly ,this is how modern capitalism works, the rich getting richer and the ones in political power joining the rich as well!

This just means the gap between rich and poor is widening and maybe even the middle class getting pulled down to closerthe poor, all the poor and middle class have is numbers and skills, what are they going to make things right???

 

[iMonga]

I seriously doubt Tony will go there - but what does it matter where he goes? There are plenty of uber rich BEE black people - Sexwale to name the most glaring. In any case, out of the 25 big business in this country, the government owns stakes in 8. BEE for themselves.

They government owns these stakes hand in a hand with extremely rich white businessmen. As the middle class why do we focus only on blacks getting rich and not on everyone who's getting rich?

 

[BobbyMac]

Sadly ,this is how modern capitalism works, the rich getting richer and the ones in political power joining the rich as well!

Why is capitalism always made to be the problem in democracy? The fact is this: the socialist structures and ideologies in the ANC are causing the big problems in the country. Telecoms is the numero uno example. If there was true capitalism in this country then South African business would drive this economy almost single handedly - think about it like this: South Africa is mega rich in terms of resources - yet we export virtually all our raw materials because we've not developed the skills and factories to actually manufacture from raw materials. Why? The answer is not because of business, but because of the huge penalties and taxes imposed on companies to be manufacturers in this country. Capitalism will take this country a hell of a lot further than the demi-socialist system we seem to be mixing into the democracy as we go along.

 

[BobbyMac]

They government owns these stakes hand in a hand with extremely rich white businessmen. As the middle class why do we focus only on blacks getting rich and not on everyone who's getting rich?

I'm sorry but the government's stake in telkom for example is a near majority if you take out publicly held share capital. There are many extremely rich white business people in SA, but don't pretend a few black folks are not getting rich from BEE. Afterall, the first word in the acronym happens to be Black.

 

[Sneeky]

Hi iMonga
Sorry was typing when you posted about the conflict between business and politics

Sadly ,this is how modern capitalism works, the rich getting richer and the ones in political power joining the rich as well!
This just means the gap between rich and poor is widening and maybe even the middle class getting pulled down to closerthe poor, all the poor and middle class have is numbers and skills, what are they going to make things right???

Actually the real sad part is that the masses that the BEE scheme is designed for see no real change. The middle class is growing and the non white % increasing, but we have to ask how much further down the track we would be had BEE been directed at these people.

You need people like Sexwale to facilitate deals but they are taking liberties here and by doing so they are creating an impression (and rightly so) that BEE is not benefiting the people it was designed to benefit and this puts more pressure on other policies, like AA and EE.

I largely support these policies but think the implementation leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Syndyre]

They government owns these stakes hand in a hand with extremely rich white businessmen. As the middle class why do we focus only on blacks getting rich and not on everyone who's getting rich?

The difference is that the blacks getting rich are being deliberately empowered by a government that controls the regulatory environment and then makes sure its own benefits. If there were black/white/blue people getting rich through pure capitalism nobody would be complaining, but the system at the moment is essentially rigged.

 

[BobbyMac]

Sneeky: I believe they should impose a limit of companies any particular individual (racially unbiased) may hold an empowerment stake in. The problem is that Tokyo is an executive shareholder in more than 100 companies. Where does he find the time to be an exec in these companies? It's plain and simple showboating, that's all it is. I propose a maximum of 8 companies, then keep the BEE compliance requirements in place and a lot more Black dudes and womendudes will make it in the business world.

 

[iMonga]

Why is capitalism always made to be the problem in democracy? The fact is this: the socialist structures and ideologies in the ANC are causing the big problems in the country. Telecoms is the numero uno example. If there was true capitalism in this country then South African business would drive this economy almost single handedly - think about it like this: South Africa is mega rich in terms of resources - yet we export virtually all our raw materials because we've not developed the skills and factories to actually manufacture from raw materials. Why? The answer is not because of business, but because of the huge penalties and taxes imposed on companies to be manufacturers in this country. Capitalism will take this country a hell of a lot further than the demi-socialist system we seem to be mixing into the democracy as we go along.

I'm no communism advocate and i'm fine with capitalism both its good and bad points! Sure business would drive the economy but what would that mean about the gap between the rich and poor ?

Skills were not developed because South Africa was a protected economy that didn't want to compete with everybody else. And of course the cost of labour by world standards was just too high when we finally opened up.
Any form of capitalism that gives everybody a chance to raise the standard of living I'm all for that!

 

[iMonga]

I'm sorry but the government's stake in telkom for example is a near majority if you take out publicly held share capital. There are many extremely rich white business people in SA, but don't pretend a few black folks are not getting rich from BEE. Afterall, the first word in the acronym happens to be Black.

Didn't pretend black people are not getting rich, I said they both are getting rich but it seems the criticism is ONLY for the blacks who are getting rich!

 

[iMonga]

Hi iMonga
Sorry was typing when you posted about the conflict between business and politics



Actually the real sad part is that the masses that the BEE scheme is designed for see no real change. The middle class is growing and the non white % increasing, but we have to ask how much further down the track we would be had BEE been directed at these people.

You need people like Sexwale to facilitate deals but they are taking liberties here and by doing so they are creating an impression (and rightly so) that BEE is not benefiting the people it was designed to benefit and this puts more pressure on other policies, like AA and EE.

I largely support these policies but think the implementation leaves a lot to be desired.

the million dollar question(ooops not rands) is whether BEE would ever be directed at the poor ? supporters of broad based bee say it's going to happen but somehow I'm not convinced !!

 

[iMonga]

Businesses have the chance of failing and closing their doors - governments have endless supplies of money and never close their doors for business. Get your semantics right if you wish to be dissing people.

i can diss them anyway I please, maybe I should try it in my african 1st language !!!

 

[iMonga]

The difference is that the blacks getting rich are being deliberately empowered by a government that controls the regulatory environment and then makes sure its own benefits. If there were black/white/blue people getting rich through pure capitalism nobody would be complaining, but the system at the moment is essentially rigged.

Agree 100%, government beaurocrats are not going to stop enriching themselves till they feel the political pressure from the voting majority. I wish the voting majority can get gatvol of this enrichment ASAP!!!!

 

[Sneeky]

the million dollar question(ooops not rands) is whether BEE would ever be directed at the poor ? supporters of broad based bee say it's going to happen but somehow I'm not convinced !!

Hi iMonga

Yes that is the big question, which is why so many feel that it is fatally flawed, however, in the absence of anything else remotely workable, it is the best way we have at the moment and the only vehicle that can possibly correct the skewed wealth distribution in our country.

The BEE policy should be considered by all to be in it's infancy and not devoid of flaws. It should be a constantly developing policy that adapts and changes to suite our nations requirements but this requires strong oversight.
White and black middle class people believe that these policies favour only the rich, the government (the whole government) should sit up and take notice of this fact and react.

BEE is a massive business in its own right in our country that must surely employ thousands so it is not going to go away anytime soon.
Those fortunate enough to have benefited from this policy (I point directly at the hierarchy here like Tokyo) should take the lead in making sure that the BEE gun-sights are lowered to point at the middle class and not always at the top tiers of their structure. That is why they are our leaders.

Sneeky: I believe they should impose a limit of companies any particular individual (racially unbiased) may hold an empowerment stake in. The problem is that Tokyo is an executive shareholder in more than 100 companies. Where does he find the time to be an exec in these companies? It's plain and simple showboating, that's all it is. I propose a maximum of 8 companies, then keep the BEE compliance requirements in place and a lot more Black dudes and womendudes will make it in the business world.

Hi Bobbymac
Lots of interesting ideas floating around not unlike the ones you mention, how many of them are feasable or not is yet to be seen.
There have been a few ANC driven workshops of late that were focused at discussing some of these very issues which is good news cause it means that the message is getting through and they are not sitting back so it is all positive.
Also I think the stereotype of 'white people just moaning cause it excludes them' is loosing a lot of steam which is great. Sure white people complain about BEE, but not always for the reasons that some might think. As iMonga has also eluded to, there is a growing number of black folks questioning the success of this policy and its implementation which puts some fuel to the fire as well.
12 years in it is really still early days, but we must not be complacent.

 

[Syndyre]

Agree 100%, government beaurocrats are not going to stop enriching themselves till they feel the political pressure from the voting majority. I wish the voting majority can get gatvol of this enrichment ASAP!!!!

The problem is how much do the majority see or know of this? They probably receive most of their news through the SABC, not exactly a bastion of hard-hitting investigative journalism!

 

[iMonga]

The problem is how much do the majority see or know of this? They probably receive most of their news through the SABC, not exactly a bastion of hard-hitting investigative journalism!

Any government heavily influences the media on how stories are reported. Journalists at the best of times have their own agenda anyway!

 

[Skeptik]

Any government heavily influences the media on how stories are reported. Journalists at the best of times have their own agenda anyway!

So you may be a journalist then

 

[iMonga]

So you may be a journalist then

hehehheheee that's funny, the thought never crossed my mind, mhhh i must approach Koos Bekker(Nasionale Pers boss), I'm sure he'll get me something quickly!