Lesbian survives hate crime stabbing

[porchrat]

You're not hearing me aunty Oc. I used an example of a man who by choice wanted to change their orientation. Try again, this time with less emotion.

Apologies for my outburst but I get annoyed when people are overly sensitive about their freaking sexual orientation!!!

Wanting to change with the help of medication is different to just closing your eyes and wishing away the gay. You can't really compare the 2.

That is like comparing someone trying to make the choice to just have their appendix disappear over having it surgically removed.

 

[JerryMungo]

No because the effect happens during foetal development and so far we have no medications that can reverse any of that. The closest we have currently is probably gene therapy but in humans it is still very experimental.

Well I'm not so sure it all happens there, at least there is no proof of that AFAIK (unless I missed something). Again... why would one identical twin have a different foetal development to the other?

 

[porchrat]

What next? - Criminals arguing that they hormones made them do it? - yeah right you still have a choice...

With some criminals that is the case. Why do you think some of them go to institutions instead of prison? For fun?

 

[JerryMungo]

Wanting to change with the help of medication is different to just closing your eyes and wishing away the gay. You can't really compare the 2.

That is like comparing someone trying to make the choice to just have their appendix disappear over having it surgically removed.

Again, you seem to imply that everything in the sexual world is purley run on genes and the physical and it's proven not to be.

 

[Fazda]

Choice is certainly one of the factors. Read my earlier post. If it was all genetic, then identical twins would have the same sexual orientation, and they often don't.

Glad you brought up twins, as very often you will get one straight one and one gay...it's genetic, and if the genes say that you are straight, then straight you are...

 

[porchrat]

Well I'm not so sure it all happens there, at least there is no proof of that AFAIK (unless I missed something).

There have been studies done that demonstrate that mammals can be turned homosexual or heterosexual through controlling the bursts of testosterone the foetus gets during development.

Again... why would one identical twin have a different foetal development to the other?

From what I know about foetal development it would be because the waves of hormones they each receive are not always dependent on their genetics alone. There are other factors at play. This is like asking why one gets cancer and the other doesn't.

 

[Fazda]

Majority of criminals are men right?? Does it have anything to do with the hormone testostorone maybe??? That still doesn't mean we should excuse their actions...

Why do you continue to compare sexual orientation to criminality? Sorry, it's just totally illogical.

 

[JerryMungo]

Glad you brought up twins, as very often you will get one straight one and one gay...it's genetic, and if the genes say that you are straight, then straight you are...

Not twins... IDENTICAL TWINS. You do realise they have the same genetic structure?

 

[porchrat]

Again, you seem to imply that everything in the sexual world is purley run on genes and the physical and it's proven not to be.

No I'm saying you can't compare trying to achieve an effect WITHOUT the use of medication to achieving an effect WITH the use of medication. They're 2 different things.

I didn't mention genes even once in that post so I don't know where you got that idea.

 

[JerryMungo]

There have been studies done that demonstrate that mammals can be turned homosexual or heterosexual through controlling the bursts of testosterone the foetus gets during development.

I'm not denying it, I'm denying it's the only factor!

From what I know about foetal development it would be because the waves of hormones they each receive are not always dependent on their genetics alone. There are other factors at play. This is like asking why one gets cancer and the other doesn't.

Well somehow Doctors haven't got a grasp on that one yet, hence studies (see the wiki link earlier) show that it's not all pure genetics and physics.

 

[JerryMungo]

No I'm saying you can't compare trying to achieve an effect WITHOUT the use of medication to achieving an effect WITH the use of medication. They're 2 different things.

I didn't mention genes even once in that post so I don't know where you got that idea.

Genes = physics, you implied that sexual orientation is purely physical and tried to compare exerscising your brain to remove an appendix to overcoming a partly / possibly psychological issue.

 

[(@) (@) twister]

Why do you continue to compare sexual orientation to criminality? Sorry, it's just totally illogical.

well if gay people can argument that they were born that way - we'll then criminals can too I guess. After all it's known that the hormone testostorine increases aggresion...
So should wepardon all male criminals on the basis that they have an oversupply of testostorone??

 

[JerryMungo]

well if gay people can argument that they were born that way - we'll then criminals can too I guess. After all it's known that the hormone testostorine increases aggresion...
So should wepardon all male criminals on the basis that they have an oversupply of testostorone??

The problem with your argument, whether you agree with homosexuality or not, is that you are implying that being homosexual is illegal or morally reprehensible... put it this way, you are not likely to convince homosexual folk or neutral folk either way, so rather just jump out the debate.

 

[porchrat]

I'm not denying it, I'm denying it's the only factor!

uh... I never said it wasn't

Well somehow Doctors haven't got a grasp on that one yet, hence studies (see the wiki link earlier) show that it's not all pure genetics and physics.

Of course they have. Any doctor worth his salt working in the field will have read these studies. They just can't apply them. They're research. We would need to do many trials before something like that could be attempted on a human. The ethical implications alone are as far as I can see insurmountable.

The point is though that the information is there. There are massive physiological elements at play always. We are in the end slaves to our physiology. Our brains function based on the way they're wired as does the rest of our body.

To take all of that and say "it's your choice" is just plain stupid.

 

[porchrat]

Genes = physics, you implied that sexual orientation is purely physical and tried to compare exerscising your brain to remove an appendix to overcoming a partly / possibly psychological issue.

I didn't mention physics I mentioned a surgical procedure.

What the heck are you on about?

and no genes do not equal physics. WTF?!?

 

[porchrat]

well if gay people can argument that they were born that way - we'll then criminals can too I guess.

Yea but the criminal is still dangerous even if he/she was born that way and so they still need to be separated from society.

With homosexuality it is a totally different scenario.

 

[JerryMungo]

uh... I never said it wasn't



Of course they have. Any doctor worth his salt working in the field will have read these studies. They just can't apply them. They're research. We would need to do many trials before something like that could be attempted on a human. The ethical implications alone are as far as I can see insurmountable.

The point is though that the information is there. There are massive physiological elements at play always. We are in the end slaves to our physiology. Our brains function based on the way they're wired as does the rest of our body.

To take all of that and say "it's your choice" is just plain stupid.

I get what you're saying about the psyche being manifest in the physical but that simply implies that your psychological thinking can affect your physical condition... i.e. being gay can be more a psychological choice (or subliminal) than people prefer to believe.

Again, the wiki article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation

IF it were pure physics, then Psychology and Psychiatry would be pointless vocations.

 

[porchrat]

I get what you're saying about the psyche being manifest in the physical but that simply implies that your psychological thinking can affect your physical condition... i.e. being gay can be more a psychological choice (or subliminal) than people prefer to believe.

If your brain is wired differently then your psyche is altered.

Try cut out a piece of your brain and see for yourself what happens.

None of this has anything to do with the price of tea in China anyway.

The research is out there go and read it. There is tons of it.

 

[JerryMungo]

and no genes do not equal physics. WTF?!?

So what are they if not physical?

 

[Lycanthrope]

Yea but the criminal is still dangerous even if he/she was born that way and so they still need to be separated from society.

With homosexuality it is a totally different scenario.

When did aggression become a crime? A person can be aggressive and even borderline hostile without ever committing a crime. An aggressive person might be aggressive due to hormones and chemical imbalances, but that's still no guarantee that they will in some way commit a crime.

There is an actual choice in a situation where you are aware that you are doing something harmful towards another person/creature.

If you are not aware of your actions being harmful then chances are good you have a mental disorder (psychopathy).