Lesbian survives hate crime stabbing

[JerryMungo]

If your brain is wired differently then your psyche is altered.

Try cut out a piece of your brain and see for yourself what happens.

I'm not denying that your brain affects your psyche. I'm implying that your psyche can affect you physically too! I for one am not a robot although I don't understand all the factors that go into decision making. I am a logical being who has choices and can make them. If that were not so, we wouldn't be able to blame people who make bad choices in life.

 

[(@) (@) twister]

@ Porchrat Yeah agree - but the point I'm making is that you still can make a choice - if it was only hormonal then most males should have been in prison because they could not control themselves.

 

[porchrat]

So what are they if not physical?

They're physical but that isn't what you said. You said "physics". Physics is a particular field of study separate from the study of genes. Sure some of it ties in but I wouldn't rely on a physicist to sequence my genome.

 

[JerryMungo]

*Off to lunch guys, then to catch up the work hours missed *
Ciao for now, wees soet, don't castrate each other to solve your differences while I'm gone!

 

[JerryMungo]

They're physical but that isn't what you said. You said "physics". Physics is a particular field of study separate from the study of genes. Sure some of it ties in but I wouldn't rely on a physicist to sequence my genome.

Again, genome? Identical twins, it's not all genes. And by physics, I meant relating to the physical.

1. (used with a sing. verb) The science of matter and energy and of interactions between the two, grouped in traditional fields such as acoustics, optics, mechanics, thermodynamics, and electromagnetism, as well as in modern extensions including atomic and nuclear physics, cryogenics, solid-state physics, particle physics, and plasma physics.
2. (used with a pl. verb) Physical properties, interactions, processes, or laws: the physics of supersonic flight.
3. (used with a sing. verb) Archaic The study of the natural or material world and phenomena; natural philosophy.

*Really really off now!*

 

[porchrat]

Yeah agree - but the point I'm making is that you still can make a choice - if it was only hormonal then most males should have been in prison because they could not control themselves.

Nobody said everything we do is solely based on our hormones. Please stop making up strawman arguments to attack.

 

[porchrat]

Again, genome? Identical twins, it's not all genes.

Uh... wha?

I merely said a physicist can't sequence DNA. They have no idea how to do it because that isn't what physics is about and now you start blathering on about identical twins and how it isn't all about genes?!? Sequencing a genome IS all about genes mate.

And by phisics, I meant relating to the physical.

Then please use the proper word for it otherwise nobody knows what the fsck you're talking about. The rest of us are all speaking English, please join us. Physics is the study of the fundamentals of matter and energy. NOT the study of genes.

To be physical != physics.

 

[ufis]

It is an offensive opinion, as well as a completely incorrect one.

Which part?

... but because it is as ridiculous as saying that a person chose to be black. It's a fallacy, it's illogical and I will be damned if you think I'll let such a stupid statement pass unnoticed

But black is genetic. You get a black father and a black mother. They will have black children. Sure sometimes there will be an albino, but that is the absolute exception.
They sure as hell will not have white (as in caucasian) children.
So if you compare it to black or white or yellow skin, how do you go from hetero mom and hetero dad to gay kid?
If you then take it with

And all those studies that demonstrate that we can influence mammals into being gay, lesbian or straight by modifying the amount of hormones they receive during foetal development? All lies?

You would have to conclude that it takes abnormal levels or hormones or other abnormal developments during fetal development to produce gay kids. Is this the case?
What is it (physically being born with) that causes some humans to deviate from the natural instinct of attraction to the opposite gender?

I can understand how emotional and psychological influences can alter (or form) your view on almost anything. But how are you born like that?

It does also beg the question asked about if criminals are then born like that too? Even if it causes a hissy fit like

It warms my heart to be compared to a criminal.
FCK YOU YOU TWAT!

How far can you take the "born like that" theory? Is Malema angry at white folk because he was born like that? Was Hitler born hating Jews from day one? Was I born to like wearing shorts and t-shirts over wearing suits? Was I born to be attracted to my wife over everyone else?

Does this mean we have no choice in our lives? We were born a certain way and that is how we are - no option for change?

While some people chose to be gay (I have heard many gay men say "My wife cheated on me so I became gay") I believe for the majority it is simply an emotional and psychological proses that can start from a very young age. Similar to how heterosexual people gain a preference to a specific hair colour or hand full size boobs vs 44HH or skinny vs fuller body.

My dear ufis, what kind of individual do you think bounces between genders? A gay person? No. A straight person? No. Really, the answer lies a bit more in-between the two.
If you have the capacity to be oriented to both genders then you are neither straight nor are you gay. Assuming that you're straight, ask yourself if you could ever have a relationship with someone who is the same gender as you and you'll know how I feel about having a relationship with someone of the opposite gender as me.

I honestly fail to see how you got from my post to this reply.

 

[ufis]

With some criminals that is the case. Why do you think some of them go to institutions instead of prison? For fun?

Were they born like that though?

 

[Fazda]

well if gay people can argument that they were born that way - we'll then criminals can too I guess. After all it's known that the hormone testostorine increases aggresion...
So should wepardon all male criminals on the basis that they have an oversupply of testostorone??

God you can talk tripe.

 

[copacetic]

Which part?

The part where non-gay people insist that it's a choice to gay people who very well know it is not via direct experience.

 

[ufis]

The part where non-gay people insist that it's a choice to gay people who very well know it is not via direct experience.

Yet that was not mentioned in my post.
(And your reply was to someone agreeing with my post)

 

[porchrat]

You would have to conclude that it takes abnormal levels or hormones or other abnormal developments during fetal development to produce gay kids. Is this the case?

As I said unfortunately there are ethical boundaries when it comes to doing this to human children (you can't withhold testosterone from a foetus and then let it grow up to see what happens. No ethics board on Earth is ever going to approve a study like that) but the evidence is quite compelling for this being at the very least a contributing factor in humans yes. From what we've seen so far it appears to be a major factor in the animals we're allowed to do these experiments on.

What is it (physically being born with) that causes some humans to deviate from the natural instinct of attraction to the opposite gender?

To argue that the natural instinct is to be attracted to the opposite gender you would need to demonstrate that homosexuality doesn't occur in nature. It does. Both are therefore natural.

I can understand how emotional and psychological influences can alter (or form) your view on almost anything. But how are you born like that?

Why is it so hard to accept? People are born with disease states all the time. Do you not believe people can be born with diabetes?

It does also beg the question asked about if criminals are then born like that too? Even if it causes a hissy fit like

Like I said whether or not they're born like that is irrelevant. The cause of their transgression is really irrelevant the point is that they're dangerous and need to be separated from society. If they're so disfunctional that they can't survive in the normal prison system then they're institutionalised.

 

[porchrat]

Were they born like that though?

If I recall correctly there have been a few genes linked with violent or psychopathic tendencies so it appears that at least some if not all may very well be yes.

Unfortunately I don't follow the journals as rigorously as I used to so I'm not sure if they have gone any further with these genes.

 

[Lycanthrope]

But black is genetic. You get a black father and a black mother. They will have black children. Sure sometimes there will be an albino, but that is the absolute exception.
They sure as hell will not have white (as in caucasian) children.

Funny that you mention that.

As for the rest of your post... I honestly don't even know where to begin, I'll simply leave it at: I choose to be happy.

 

[porchrat]

But black is genetic. You get a black father and a black mother. They will have black children. Sure sometimes there will be an albino, but that is the absolute exception.

Unfortunately genetics is far more complex than just this example. Some gene variants (alleles) are recessive some are dominant, some are codominant etc. etc.

For example 2 parents with brown eyes can have a child with blue eyes.

 

[copacetic]

Yet that was not mentioned in my post.
(And your reply was to someone agreeing with my post)

I see what you're saying.

My response was in light of Pooky's opinion that it is a choice. Sorry, I don't keep a running memo of the thread in my head when I reply.

This is your response to which you were referring I presume:

Why is "choosing to be gay" so offensive to gays? Do they feel that it is not a good choice to make?

While some people chose to be gay (I have heard many gay men say "My wife cheated on me so I became gay") I believe for the majority it is simply an emotional and psychological proses that can start from a very young age. Similar to how heterosexual people gain a preference to a specific hair colour or hand full size boobs vs 44HH or skinny vs fuller body.

If this is your notion of how people become homosexual, I presume this same process holds then for people who become heterosexual?

 

[JerryMungo]

Back from lunch... quick point, then I'm back to work

A person can be genetically inclined to have angina attacks. The attacks themselves can be onset by stress. A person to some degree can learn to gain more control over their mental ability to avoid and avert stress, hence a person can exersice dominion over their physical predisposition to angina attacks. An angina attack manifests itself physically in the dilation of blood vessels among other things, by mentally averting stress and avoiding it by choice, a person can actually live a healthy life, free of the physical ailment of angina. Some may be better at it, some practise harder at it, although the predisposition to angina is genetic (in many cases), overcoming it can actually be a choice to some degree.

Now bear in mind that sexual orientation is not entirely physical and genetic in origin, do we all agree that choice is certainly one of the factors (greater or lesser degree, as are the many physical factors)?

The mind is a powerful place. Yes it can be affected by outside influences, just as it can affect outside influences, but certainly we are not born robots and choice is very much a part of our lives. Gary Player said 'the more I practice, the luckier I get'... sure he's genetically gifted, but we certainly can't congratulate him for that when he lifts the trophy.... equally, his choice to practice hard decided his fate as much as his genetics. Without either he couldn't do it.

All I'm saying is that (it's a general sweeping statement, not applicable to every situation), choice and psyche are/can certainly be a part of sexual orientation!
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!

 

[Lycanthrope]

Now bear in mind that sexual orientation is not entirely physical and genetic in origin, do we all agree that choice is certainly one of the factors (greater or lesser degree, as are the many physical factors)?

Nope, we don't.

Only choice is what gender person you'd sleep with, not what gender you are attracted to.

Round and round in circles we go.

 

[ufis]

To argue that the natural instinct is to be attracted to the opposite gender you would need to demonstrate that homosexuality doesn't occur in nature. It does. Both are therefore natural.

Then you will also have to determine how much external influence these animals had. Did pregnant doggy mommy maybe eat a rat that was poisoned by a human?

Just because it occurs in nature, does not just make it natural.

Why is it so hard to accept? People are born with disease states all the time. Do you not believe people can be born with diabetes?

Are you saying that being gay is a disease?
Diabetes is the malfunctioning of one of the organs. What is malfunctioning in gay people? (You equated it to born with a disease, I am just asking)

Like I said whether or not they're born like that is irrelevant.

No it is very relevant.
It should not allow them to operate freely in public though, but it is still very relevant to this discussion.


But anyway, this discussion will go round and round. I still feel that emotional and psychological events in your life is the determining factor for your sexual orientation.