Linux, Gaming and You

Stop spreading untruths about it and I'll stop...
You want to blatantly lie to people to push your myopic views on a situation you have not the slightest clue about? get real...
You have incorrect and flawed statements that you want ignored. At every turn you say something untrue about Windows in the context of gaming and related technologies I will be there to make sure you're telling the truth.

Argue the merits of Linux based on what you know, don't try pull a fast one. ;)
 
Good thread, equally in terms of original content and sensible discussion and not-so-sensible discussion (read: entertainment)

Seriously though, for someone who switched over to Ubuntu about a month ago, like myself, this is a very informative thread. Thanks.

And I agree with Chiskop, until DirectX runs natively on Linux, there is no place for or use of a OGL vs DX argument in this thread..
 
Well that is how I feel about Linux. Have too many problems with drivers and games. Have no problems in windows
 
DarthCat said:
Well that is how I feel about Linux. Have too many problems with drivers and games. Have no problems in windows
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If you have questions, ask away and plenty of people will try to help.

Otherwise maybe its best you stick to windows, seeing as that works for you. This thread is an attempt to help those who want to game on linux, for whatever reason.

If you don't have anything constructive to say, rather don't.
 
ShockG said:
Stop spreading untruths about it and I'll stop...
You want to blatantly lie to people to push your myopic views on a situation you have not the slightest clue about? get real...
You have incorrect and flawed statements that you want ignored. At every turn you say something untrue about Windows in the context of gaming and related technologies I will be there to make sure you're telling the truth.

Argue the merits of Linux based on what you know, don't try pull a fast one. ;)
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Again, I say, you are arguing symantics in a rough-guidlines post. I am not going to go into intricate detail on every little thing to satiate your appetite for in-depth technical ****ery. I am trying to keep it simple, something you seem completely incapable of doing lest someone, somewhere have any doubt that everything you say is of PHD-level. People don't care about the intricacies of APIs and graphical politics. It's like I am describing a car as "red, with a leather interior and air-con", and you are ripping it to pieces because it is in fact "maroon with a pleather interior and a fusion-cooled hydro-splatter o2-condensing unit, V8 engine, 17 gears, nitros-injection and a gold-plated fuel cap".

Let's keep it simple ;)
 
As has been stated, if DarthCat asked for help with his problems he would find willing help.
 
I am not going to go into intricate detail on every little thing to satiate your appetite for in-depth technical ****ery. I am trying to keep it simple,
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Keeping it simple and keeping it true are not mutually exclusive. What you have done is keep it untrue and that's where the problem arises. Instead of fixing the errors you rather defend them. Worst part if you use these incorrect assumptions as a spring board from which you make your points.
People don't care about the intricacies of APIs and graphical politics.
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That may be true and if that is the case rather don't discuss them then. Why bring them up, find that you're ill equipped to tackle them, then turn around and say people don't care. Make you point without untrue reference to them and that's all there is to it.
If you say things like
As you can see, OpenGL2.1 and DirectX 10 are pretty close. However, the OpenGL2.1 images are renders, where as some of the DirectX 10 images are in-game screenshots. So yes, right now, DirectX 10 is better than OpenGL2.1. Don't fret, however, as if you compare OpenGL2.1 to DirectX 9, you can see just how much better OpenGL2.1
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then you bring a technical element into it which you shouldn't and as you've said people don't care about it.

Statements such as the one below
There are, of course, a number of games (and game development companies) who pretty much give Microsoft the middle finger and do whatever the hell they want
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Is it not possible for you to champion gaming on linux and assist people without talking ill of Microsoft? I mean just from that statement you make it seem as if there are devs who set out to stick it to Microsoft and the games which you have listed are from proof of this. That's not right sir, it is untrue.
 
ShockG said:
It is your assumptions that lead you astray. Maybe you're not aware of it but DOS stands for Disk Operating System and there were many versions. Who said MS anywhere there? Focus please
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Once again, try focussing yourself. You know vey well which DOS I meant, you're just trying to muddy the water ;). Were all those games meant to place nicely with DR-DOS and FreeDOS?

If you're not aware of it gaming has become a business. In any development studio you try and do the most you can with as little cost as possible. It is economics, its cheaper to go with Microsft because there are more people proficient in dealing with high level tessellation shaders for example in a DirectX background than there are in OpenGL for instance. These individuals cost less so the whole project costs less.
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No, really? BTW, check the thread title again ;).

Your question has no relevance to what your quoted. Anyway OpenGL because it is API and driver cannot manage its own context switching, so Vista's Aero could not co exist with a GL accelerated application in a window. With Microsoft having added DWM, this is now possible as it could manage the 3d resources.
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My question was relevant, it goes to motivation and leveraging of market dominance. You simply don't want to face these questions, you'd much rather hide behind the DirectX technical detail and try fob us off with that.

huh? how is allowing you to use a renderer of choice not API agnostic by DirectX? You don't have to go through directX to make use of audio hardware or input and network capabilities. These developers chose too because DirectX makes their lives much easier by handling all of that which means they don't have to deal with it internally.
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Way to avoid the issue. I asked if it's really true that MS don't care about what does the rendering then why did they initially move to put OpenGL above D3D in the software stack. Are you sure that *you* are technically up to this debate?

http://www.osnews.com/comments/11489
Microsoft's current plan for OpenGL on Windows Vista is to layer OpenGL over Direct3D in order to use OpenGL with a composited desktop to obtain the Aeroglass experience. This means that OpenGL performance will be significantly reduced - perhaps as much as 50%. It would be technically straightforward to provide an OpenGL ICD within the full Aeroglass experience without compromising the stability or the security of the operating system. Layering OpenGL over Direct3D is a policy more than a technical decision.
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Wrong, the thread starter is blatantly wrong about several things. I am pointing out where he is wrong in as semi technical a manner as possible. You're not not equipped to have this debate with me on this. Please come with something a little more credible.
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Check the thread title. It's you that's not equipped for this debate.

Here's a quote from Wikipedia. Are you going to tell the writer that he should also bow to your vapourous technological superiority?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_OpenGL_and_Direct3D
Most of the time, the developers would favor Direct3D because of the dominance of the Windows operating system in the desktop gaming market.
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Once again, try focussing yourself. You know vey well which DOS I meant, you're just trying to muddy the water . Were all those games meant to place nicely with DR-DOS and FreeDOS?
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Claifornia games and almost all dos games I have play play fine on FreeDos and on Dr-Dos. In fact I use FreeDos when I sue dos ;)

And the dangers of Wikipedia surface again. :) You're wrong (this is getting to be common)
Microsoft's current plan for OpenGL on Windows Vista is to layer OpenGL over Direct3D in order to use OpenGL with a composited desktop to obtain the Aeroglass experience. This means that OpenGL performance will be significantly reduced - perhaps as much as 50%. It would be technically straightforward to provide an OpenGL ICD within the full Aeroglass experience without compromising the stability or the security of the operating system. Layering OpenGL over Direct3D is a policy more than a technical decision.
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At first yes Microsoft had said they would layer OpenGL over Direct3D, but that wasn't the case in the end. As I told you before the use of DWM meant that you didn't need to wrap GL in Direct3D.

Hardware-accelerated OpenGL is fully supported on Windows Vista with the Windows Aero compositing desktop user experience - just as with Direct3D.
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OpenGL hardware acceleration is handled in exactly the same way in Windows XP and Windows Vista - through an Installable Client Driver (ICD) provided by graphics card manufacturers. Without an OpenGL ICD installed, Windows XP and Windows Vista both revert to rendering OpenGL in software on the CPU rather than using GPU acceleration.
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The DWM is a key element of the Windows Vista user experience and one of its main functions is to manage the presentation of the Windows desktop by compositing the outputs of multiple applications to the screen. As a complete 3D application in its own right, the DWM uses GPU memory and resources and places an additional load on the GPU, which impacts application graphics performance by approximately 10% for typical applications. End users should weigh the benefits of the DWM and the Windows Aero user interface against this performance cost. An easy way to experiment with a particular application is to disable the DWM, by selecting the Windows Classic or Windows Basic user interface style.
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OpenGL was supported in Vista in full screen mode always, it was only with aero where it was going to be wrapped however because of the DWM there was no wrapping required any more. This is what I'm getting at your understanding is so poor that even the things you quote don't help your cause at all. Then to make matters worse you go to Wikipedia for referrals...
 
ShockG said:
Claifornia games and almost all dos games I have play play fine on FreeDos and on Dr-Dos. In fact I use FreeDos when I sue dos ;)
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Open source ftw :D. BTW, how was FreeDOS support back during the timeframe when these games were new? I remember playing with DOSEMU back then.

And the dangers of Wikipedia surface again. :) You're wrong (this is getting to be common)
At first yes Microsoft had said they would layer OpenGL over Direct3D, but that wasn't the case in the end. As I told you before the use of DWM meant that you didn't need to wrap GL in Direct3D.
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Go and correct them too then ;). I only quoted the bit that has to do with market dominance. You seemed to be having a problem acknowledging that, so I produced a source just to show the delusion is apparently shared amongst other people too.
Interesting that your rant from yesterday about SGI was also covered on that Wikipedia page. Did they get that bit wrong too?

OpenGL was supported in Vista in full screen mode always, it was only with aero where it was going to be wrapped however because of the DWM there was no wrapping required any more. This is what I'm getting at your understanding is so poor that even the things you quote don't help your cause at all. Then to make matters worse you go to Wikipedia for referrals...
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Yes, I did say "initially". At least you're not trying to twist that and attribute it to my poor understanding too. So much for not sidestepping issues etc, I see you've dropped that chorus now. Do you have anything else left?
 
Go and correct them too then . I only quoted the bit that has to do with market dominance
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Anybody can write on wikipedia...
As for a rant about Silicon graphics I don't remember it. when SGI filled for Chpt11 they relinquished control over GL to the Khronos group Quote me again where I ranted about SGI?
you're osnews link says...
Microsoft's current plan for OpenGL on Windows Vista is to layer OpenGL over Direct3D in order to use OpenGL with a composited desktop to obtain the Aeroglass experience. This means that OpenGL performance will be significantly reduced - perhaps as much as 50%. It would be technically straightforward to provide an OpenGL ICD within the full Aeroglass experience without compromising the stability or the security of the operating system. Layering OpenGL over Direct3D is a policy more than a technical decision.
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The Khronos group says different (as I quoted above). I would like to believe the people who control the standard are more in tune with it than a wiki page is.... ;)

Yes, I did say "initially". At least you're not trying to twist that and attribute it to my poor understanding too. So much for not sidestepping issues etc, I see you've dropped that chorus now. Do you have anything else left?
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huh? what chorus. Sir, the text you have written in the first page of this thread is wrong, I have explained how it is wrong, but you insist on debating me rather than the merits of your text. If you are going to defend what you have written, defend it by all means, but please try stay relevant. The quote you have from osnews is old, incorrect and describes a situation that never came to be. I offer a rebutal from the people who control the standard where's the confusion there?
 
ShockG said:
Anybody can write on wikipedia...
As for a rant about Silicon graphics I don't remember it. when SGI filled for Chpt11 they relinquished control over GL to the Khronos group Quote me again where I ranted about SGI?
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http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=1660074#post1660074
Next time, check your own post history.

The Khronos group says different (as I quoted above). I would like to believe the people who control the standard are more in tune with it than a wiki page is.... ;)
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'k so you won't accept my link, boohoo. I'm am busy reading the Khronos site though.

huh? what chorus. Sir, the text you have written in the first page of this thread is wrong, I have explained how it is wrong, but you insist on debating me rather than the merits of your text. If you are going to defend what you have written, defend it by all means, but please try stay relevant. The quote you have from osnews is old, incorrect and describes a situation that never came to be. I offer a rebutal from the people who control the standard where's the confusion there?
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So now you are going to twist my words. I said "initially", once again, to show that it was originally MS's intention, and there is no smoke without fire.

No you haven't offered any rebuttal. Edit your post and put the quote in there please.

I won't even attempt to catalogue all the questions you have dodged and the cheapshots about me not being able to tell the difference between an API and programming language.
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?p=1661555#post1661555
You didn't even realise that it wasn't me you were replying to.

It is clear that relevance is a concept that completely escapes you, but if it makes you feel better to accuse me of posting irrelevant stuff, go ahead. I'm getting quite bored with getting pulled down to your tit-for-tat level, so I'm washing my hands of this.

Troll away "sir".
 
@Kasyx

Sorry to spam your Linux gaming thread man. Maybe you can cut and paste the stuff that is not being disputed into a new thread and ask for a sticky. Would be nice to have some of this stuff to point to as a reference. That was probably your original idea but perhaps 2.0 will do it :D.

Edit: Perhaps we need one for commercial apps that run natively, apps that run with Wine etc.
 
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You had the pioneer of the industry to spring board from (SGI)
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In your link on that page that's my only mention of SGI. In fact that's the ony time I ever mentioned SGI. Which part of this is a rant about SGI?

I won't even attempt to catalogue all the questions you have dodged and the cheapshots about me not being able to tell the difference between an API and programming language.
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You claimed to be a programmer so it stands that you should know the difference between an API and a programming language. I didn't introduce qualifications or professions into anything. You did.
It is clear that relevance is a concept that completely escapes you, but if it makes you feel better to accuse me of posting irrelevant stuff, go ahead. I'm getting quite bored with getting pulled down to your tit-for-tat level, so I'm washing my hands of this.
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Yet you have still not addressed the issue of incorrect information in the first two posts of this thread. You spend so much time trying to prove me wrong instead of dealing with proving the statements made by the topic starter correct.

So it's okay that the thread starter has misled and mis-informed. Never mind that, focus on the person who would tell you something is wrong. Even if you had proved me wrong, that will never make the thread starter correct written the way he has written it.

Either way I will make my exit here. If anything I hope I have cast doubt on the statements made by the thread starter at the least so that those who want to find out the truth can seek it for themselves. What was posted there is wrong and to defend it then makes it a lie.

Good evening to you all :)
 
fskmh said:
@Kasyx

Sorry to spam your Linux gaming thread man. Maybe you can cut and paste the stuff that is not being disputed into a new thread and ask for a sticky. Would be nice to have some of this stuff to point to as a reference. That was probably your original idea but perhaps 2.0 will do it :D.

Edit: Perhaps we need one for commercial apps that run natively, apps that run with Wine etc.
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While I am sure the point of view ShockG brings is valuable for some, i to am of the view that it is out of place in this thread. My take on this thread was what games work on Linux and how can you get them running.

The technical aspects of OpenGL v DirectX (or Direct3D I don't know) should be for a seperate in the main Hardware and Software section given that OpenGL also works in Windows. My 2c worth.
 
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