Manto hailed as hero

joelus said:
I challenge you to provide any video footage or even a transcript of any speech by Mbeki or Manto where either of them say "HIV doesn't cause AIDS".
Just one example will do, Mr Researcher...:whistle:
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There was a one hour special on youtube a while back that I linked to over and over again on my blog where he, in great detail, explains how hiv is 100% part of the AIDs picture. He simply stated the intelligent view shared by many people at the time that all sides of the argument be looked at. It seems have since been taken down , probably because of it's length , but I will search for other copies of it on the net.

It's simply dogmatic to make broad sweeping assumptions when people's lives are at stake. What is wrong with someone keeping an open mind on an issue that has credible scientists and virologists on both sides of fence with different opinions ?

Today we have global warming. I'm sorry but unless you're a climotologist you better not be calling anyone out for being skeptical that global warming is man made, because then you're basing you opinion on popular public sentiment. And public sentiment is very very easy to manipulate by powerful, people with grandiose agenda's sometimes and in no way a valid way of knowing anything. With global warming it's a question of cause and effect. Is man causing the extra co2 and hence the warming ? Or is the warming causing the co2 and it has nothing to do with man ?

With HIV it was is hiv causing Aids and hence low immune systems. Or is hiv harmless and are bad diets/drug use/lifestyles etc with the added stress of being told you have a fatal disease causing low immune systems. It's actually a lot more complicated than that and comes down to the inconsistant behavious of HIV as a retrovirus that the scientific denialism is based on.

The point is , like with global warming the issues is not nearlyu as black and white as people think. At the time Mbeki asked for a debate on the issue there was a strong split ammongst people (not involved in selling you ARV's) as to whether ARV's would kill faster than cure in Africa. Even today in the AIDS world there's a split of people in Europe and the States who won't take ARV's or who swear by them. To simplify all of this into the way some of you do is stupid, biast and Ican guarantee if you were in their shoes when the debate was raging it would not be so cut and dry.
 
joelus said:
I challenge you to provide any video footage or even a transcript of any speech by Mbeki or Manto where either of them say "HIV doesn't cause AIDS".
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No. I challenged you to show me where they said it didn't. You're the one making loony comments that an extremely well educated , intelligent, conservative person like Mbeki would deny HIV's role in Aids. When you make theories that seemingly lack even superficial anecdotal evidence such as this , or one about pink unicorns in your belly, it's your prerogative to provide evidence. I don't have to pander to your lunacy.
 
Therooster said:
Three threads and not a single person can show me any incident of her denying AIDS , Claiming HIV is not the cause of AIDS or claiming beetroot or garlic could cure anything. Yet you yap on with the same misinformation. Wow, guys. You're complex organisms. Accomodate and assimulate new data so you can effectively adapt to the stimuli in your environment.
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It's been proven in many various quotes on this forum and elsewhere. To continue to ask for "evidence" of this only makes people view you in a similar light as the person you are trying to defend! ;)

Even despite her view of the link, her policy of blocking the ARV's was enough by itself to cause the death of thousands of people. Do you sympathise with that?
 
Therooster said:
No. I challenged you to show me where they said it didn't. You're the one making loony comments that an extremely well educated , intelligent, conservative person like Mbeki would deny HIV's role in Aids. When you make theories that seemingly lack even superficial anecdotal evidence such as this , or one about pink unicorns in your belly, it's your prerogative to provide evidence. I don't have to pander to your lunacy.
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Seriously dude! Go back to school if you want to be like 16 year old, who can’t take being put down like a dog! Bite your tongue and put your tail between your legs and walk away, just walk away. I make more senses then you?
 
"Cure" vs. 'combat', 'slow down', 'delay' (the invevitable), 'fight', 'treat' - who cares? Mbeki's denialist era is set in stone for the rest of eternity. Manto's backward approach was noticed by the world and the rest of the world laughed at us and shook their heads.

Seems like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

They fscked up royally so why are you trying to defend them?
 
Therooster said:
No. I challenged you to show me where they said it didn't. You're the one making loony comments that an extremely well educated , intelligent, conservative person like Mbeki would deny HIV's role in Aids. When you make theories that seemingly lack even superficial anecdotal evidence such as this , or one about pink unicorns in your belly, it's your prerogative to provide evidence. I don't have to pander to your lunacy.
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:wtf:Therooster, I think you're confused. Not everyone is your enemy! I'm actually probably one of the only people on this forum who actually agrees with you and you're calling me a lunatic! Read my challenge again. Properly. You will see it is not aimed at you but at those who claim Mbeki stated HIV does not cause AIDS. He never said that, hence the challenge.
 
DreamKing said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3143850.stm

:D
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I challenge you to provide any video footage or even a transcript of any speech by Mbeki or Manto where either of them say "HIV doesn't cause AIDS".

What you've just given me is Mbeki saying he never knew anyone personally who died of AIDS. Gee, guess what, I don't know anyone who died from AIDS either. He never said HIV doesn't cause AIDS.
 
DreamKing said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3143850.stm

:D
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Mbeki the Denialist verbally in '03 said:
"Personally, I don't know anybody who has died of Aids, I really, honestly don't".
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This statement is a bit like the argument in this thread - pure semantics. I don't know of anyone who's died of aids either because as far as I understood it, AIDS hasn't killed anyone. AIDS-related sickness is what kills. Once your immune syndrome reaches rock bottom, it's the other nasties that get you in the end.
 
Flanders said:
"Cure" vs. 'combat', 'slow down', 'delay' (the invevitable), 'fight', 'treat' - who cares? Mbeki's denialist era is set in stone for the rest of eternity. Manto's backward approach was noticed by the world and the rest of the world laughed at us and shook their heads.

Seems like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

They fscked up royally so why are you trying to defend them?
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It's an important difference between "Cure" and "Combat".
If it's a cure you take the drug and you are cured.
Otherwise you have to keep taking the drug for the rest of your life.
If you do not have adequate nutrition and a healthy lifestyle while taking the drug you will die. That's a lot of money (around $150 billion per year if Arbiter's calculations are correct) to spend on people who do not have adequate nutrition and cannot be depended on to take the drugs everyday for the rest of their lives.
 
joelus said:
It's an important difference between "Cure" and "Combat".
If it's a cure you take the drug and you are cured.
Otherwise you have to keep taking the drug for the rest of your life.
If you do not have adequate nutrition and a healthy lifestyle while taking the drug you will die. That's a lot of money (around $150 billion per year if Arbiter's calculations are correct) to spend on people who do not have adequate nutrition and cannot be depended on to take the drugs everyday for the rest of their lives.
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Quite right - as opposed to the fact that if you eat the ol' G&B, you will die from AIDS-related illness at some point regardless of whether you maintain adequate nutrition. :D
 
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