Manto hailed as hero

joelus said:
:wtf:Therooster, I think you're confused. Not everyone is your enemy! I'm actually probably one of the only people on this forum who actually agrees with you and you're calling me a lunatic! Read my challenge again. Properly. You will see it is not aimed at you but at those who claim Mbeki stated HIV does not cause AIDS. He never said that, hence the challenge.
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:D

With friend like the rooster you do not need enemies:p

Who wants a Rooster for Christmas. It does have HIV..... but do not worry it eats beetroot and garlic every morning....:whistle:
 
joelus said:
I challenge you to provide any video footage or even a transcript of any speech by Mbeki or Manto where either of them say "HIV doesn't cause AIDS".

What you've just given me is Mbeki saying he never knew anyone personally who died of AIDS. Gee, guess what, I don't know anyone who died from AIDS either. He never said HIV doesn't cause AIDS.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/720995.stm

still not satisfied? :D
 
joelus said:
:wtf:Therooster, I think you're confused. Not everyone is your enemy! I'm actually probably one of the only people on this forum who actually agrees with you and you're calling me a lunatic! Read my challenge again. Properly. You will see it is not aimed at you but at those who claim Mbeki stated HIV does not cause AIDS. He never said that, hence the challenge.
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lol. Furry muff. I didn't read it right. My apologies.
 
Flanders said:
This statement is a bit like the argument in this thread - pure semantics. I don't know of anyone who's died of aids either because as far as I understood it, AIDS hasn't killed anyone. AIDS-related sickness is what kills. Once your immune syndrome reaches rock bottom, it's the other nasties that get you in the end.
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from the link......

"Mbeki's statement proves that he is a dissident who believes that the HIV virus doesn't cause Aids... In the face of the economic evidence that South Africa is subjected to as a result of the HIV virus, it is a shame to think that the country is run by a dissident."
 
NowNow said:
"How can a virus cause a syndrome? asks Mbeki"
http://www.aegis.com/news/woza/2000/IC000906.html
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So just to be clear, Mbeki first said:
"All HIV/AIDS programmes of this government are based on the thesis that HIV causes AIDS," said Mbeki, adding "There is absolutely no confusion about what to do."
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But he went on to ask "Does HIV cause AIDS? Can a virus cause a syndrome? How? It can't, because a syndrome is a group of diseases resulting from acquired immune deficiency." He said that the question still unresolved by scientists is: what contribution does HIV make to the collapse of the immune system?

"Indeed, HIV contributes, but other things contribute as well," said Mbeki.
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He is questioning whether there is a direct cause and effect between HIV and AIDS. I think it's a reasonable question. Some people who are HIV+ never develop AIDS which suggests that there are other factors in addition to HIV which cause HIV to result in AIDS. Poverty and malnutrition are among the these other factors and need to be addressed. Someone who is malnourished is not going to benefit from ARV's no matter how much money the government spends in pushing them...
 
NowNow said:
"How can a virus cause a syndrome? asks Mbeki"
http://www.aegis.com/news/woza/2000/IC000906.html

also (this site is dedicated to the ideas Mbeki and Manto had);
http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/news/durbspmbeki.htm
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Quote taken directly from an article you liked me to.

But he emphasised that all government HIV/AIDS policies are based on the premise that HIV causes AIDS.
"All HIV/AIDS programmes of this government are based on the thesis that HIV causes AIDS," said Mbeki, adding "There is absolutely no confusion about what to do."

But he went on to ask "Does HIV cause AIDS? Can a virus cause a syndrome? How? It can't, because a syndrome is a group of diseases resulting from acquired immune deficiency." He said that the question still unresolved by scientists is: what contribution does HIV make to the collapse of the immune system?
"Indeed, HIV contributes, but other things contribute as well," said Mbeki.

Wow , what a loony ! What crackpot ! He's asking intelligent questions !

lol

:erm:
 
joelus said:
So just to be clear, Mbeki first said:




He is questioning whether there is a direct cause and effect between HIV and AIDS. I think it's a reasonable question. Some people who are HIV+ never develop AIDS which suggests that there are other factors in addition to HIV which cause HIV to result in AIDS. Poverty and malnutrition are among the these other factors and need to be addressed. Someone who is malnourished is not going to benefit from ARV's no matter how much money the government spends in pushing them...
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Quite right. Not to mention the big question a5t the time was in Africa would ARV's kill faster than cure. He wanted people to compare apples with apples. You can't compare how effective a drug will be in Europe and with Africa. The context and environment is too different. I've seen people call Mbeki hundreds of horrible names for doing nothing more than ask a very sensible question.

I hope some of you have learned to be a little more skeptical of what you read in the future in the papers. There are always agendas at play. Sometimes it's selling newspapers and sometimes it's more sinister. The point is up to know there are some of you who had such an unsophisticated view on the issue you thought the A.N.C's policies were as dumb as " hiv doesn't cause aids and it can be treated with garlic." When in reality they were very well thought out and intelligent and there for anyone to see.

If you wanted to see.

It's more convenient for most of you to just think black people are savages though isn't it ?
 
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Can those defending Manto show me the program she promoted? What criteria were used to determine whether someone's lifestyle had become healthy enough for them to receive the drugs? How were babies evaluated prior to being given the drug to prevent the mother passing on the disease? If someone had just been raped were they initially tested to see that their lifestyle was healthy enough, then given the drugs?
 
Flanders said:
This statement is a bit like the argument in this thread - pure semantics. I don't know of anyone who's died of aids either because as far as I understood it, AIDS hasn't killed anyone. AIDS-related sickness is what kills. Once your immune syndrome reaches rock bottom, it's the other nasties that get you in the end.
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joelus said:
I challenge you to provide any video footage or even a transcript of any speech by Mbeki or Manto where either of them say "HIV doesn't cause AIDS".

What you've just given me is Mbeki saying he never knew anyone personally who died of AIDS. Gee, guess what, I don't know anyone who died from AIDS either. He never said HIV doesn't cause AIDS.
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remark:

someone may say "HIV doesn't cause AIDS" directly or indirectly.
if the "person" said something indirectly and you insist the "person" never said so, I will say you are naive. For example:=> blacks are monkeys, what do you think? Am I racist or not? But did I say Black people are monkeys? Monkey implied for what? Good? Evil? Animals? Or what? Why it make you think that I am racist? It can be neutral and harmless, may be I say anything of "black" (colour) looks like monkeys (monkeys are what I like - lovable; likeable; dear; nice; pretty; sweet; honey; lovely.)

it is not necessary Mbeki said from his mouth, "HIV doesn't cause AIDS".

understand? ;)
 
just hit me what'sso deliciously ironic about these Mantu debates. The people coming out so strongly to celebrate her death I can almost guarantee you are the people who care the least about the Aids pandemic in South Africa. In fact I would put money on it that a lot of you actually could care less if twice the amount of people died in this country from AIDS and would probably celebrate that too , prodived like Manto, they were black.

Don't answer out aloud. Just admit it to yourself. I've been debating this issue for a long time. I know the types of "concerned citizens" I'm dealing with. The same types who suddenly became animal rights activists when some black people slaughtered a cow. Yup. I know you far too well to have any doubt in my mind regaring your exact concerns to the well being of people with AIDS. So do us all a favour and let's stop the posturing. Some of the most vocal anti Manto people here don't give a damn if black people here get good AIDS treatment or not. Stop insulting our intelligence.
 
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DreamKing said:
remark:

someone may say "HIV doesn't cause AIDS" directly or indirectly.
if the "person" said something indirectly and you insist the "person" never said so, I will say you are naive. For example:=> blacks are monkeys, what do you think? Am I racist or not? But did I say Black people are monkeys? Monkey implied for what? Good? Evil? Animals? Or what? Why it make you think that I am racist? It can be neutral and harmless, may be I say anything of "black" (colour) looks like monkeys (monkeys are what I like - lovable; likeable; dear; nice; pretty; sweet; honey; lovely.)

it is not necessary Mbeki said from his mouth, "HIV doesn't cause AIDS".

understand? ;)
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How're your ankles holding out with all that packpeddling ?
 
Therooster said:
"Indeed, HIV contributes, but other things contribute as well," said Mbeki. [/B]

Wow , what a loony ! What crackpot ! He's asking intelligent questions !

lol

:erm:
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Whilst he was asking those questions (trying to be clever) hundreds of thousands were dying due to lack of treatment. Mbeki FTW! (notice my subtle use of sarcasm)

Sometimes you can't believe. :wtf:
 
People who think Manto was totally deluded for asserting that good nutrition and poverty alleviation a necessary prerequisite to dealing with HIV, she was not alone in thinking this:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQoNW7lOnT4[/ame]

This is not just some crackpot, this is Luc Montagnier, a French virologist who jointly won the 2008 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for his discovery of the Human Immunodeficiency Virus (HIV).
 
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timgaul said:
An alcoholic who used her political influence to procure a new liver at the possible direct cost of someone else's life, and she's now a hero?

I agree 100% with Gareth Cliff.
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Absolute nonsense.
Two years ago, Tshabalala-Msimang had a five-hour liver transplant.

At the time there was widespread speculation that she had jumped the waiting list for organs.

But this was denied by Wing and a team of specialists.

Wing said the then-minister's "tissue typing rendered her a universal recipient".

"In this country there is no long waiting list as such for livers," he said.

"In fact, when it comes to liver transplants, we have more donors than recipients."

Dr Russell Britz, a chief transplant surgeon at the Wits Donald Gordon Medical Centre, said Tshabalala- Msimang "scored the highest points" to be a recipient.

At the time, Tager said that according to the waiting list at the Donald Gordon centre, the minister "qualified as the person who was most in need of a liver in terms of severity of condition and size match compatibility".

Wing was also quoted as saying before, during and after the then-minister's transplant that her liver problems had nothing to do with alcohol, but were caused by hepatitis.
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http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=125&art_id=vn20091217043448578C738560
 
DreamKing said:
remark:

someone may say "HIV doesn't cause AIDS" directly or indirectly.
if the "person" said something indirectly and you insist the "person" never said so, I will say you are naive. For example:=> blacks are monkeys, what do you think? Am I racist or not? But did I say Black people are monkeys? Monkey implied for what? Good? Evil? Animals? Or what? Why it make you think that I am racist? It can be neutral and harmless, may be I say anything of "black" (colour) looks like monkeys (monkeys are what I like - lovable; likeable; dear; nice; pretty; sweet; honey; lovely.)

it is not necessary Mbeki said from his mouth, "HIV doesn't cause AIDS".

understand? ;)
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The problem is that it is not so clear cut. There are people who have been HIV positive for nearly twenty years without developing AIDS. There are also people who develop AIDS within a couple of months of HIV infection. There must be more involved than just HIV being a direct cause.
 
What's that I hear ? A high pitched buzzing ? Some kind of insect rubbing it's legs together perhaps.

;)
 
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