Manto hailed as hero

PeterCH said:
The danger is that some uneducated or suspicious people may read therooster's drivel blog and his posts here and buy into the Colonial/Corporate/Racist Lies&Deceit Tin Foil hat campaign he punts and behave less responsibly in their sexual relationships and what they preach to their friends and partners. People could actually acquire HIV or give HIV to others if they buy some of the BS HIV-denial apologetics punt. That's dangerous and tragic.
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Link
 
joelus said:
The problem is that it is not so clear cut. There are people who have been HIV positive for nearly twenty years without developing AIDS. There are also people who develop AIDS within a couple of months of HIV infection. There must be more involved than just HIV being a direct cause.
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And whatever those factors are they must be very important in determining how to treat the disease. It's not hard to understand, people.

We've been practicing the scientific method in the form of reductionism since even before the 19th century. When we try and understand cause and effect it's important we look at all variables involved to get the most valid possible ways of understand an interaction.
 
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joelus said:
The problem is that it is not so clear cut. There are people who have been HIV positive for nearly twenty years without developing AIDS. There are also people who develop AIDS within a couple of months of HIV infection. There must be more involved than just HIV being a direct cause.
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read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS

In theory, HIV is not a single factor of developing AIDS, BUT it is the major factor of developing AIDS.

On the other hand, AIDS never kills people if we are in the no virus environment.

In practical, the development of AIDS basically is from HIV and AIDS is killing people!

So don't do the "word game". Come back to the earth, people with AIDS do not have time to play this game.
 
Therooster said:
And whatever those factors are they must be very important in determining how to treat the disease. It's not hard to understand, people.

We've been practicing the scientific method in the form of reductionism since even before the 19th century. When we try and understand cause and effect it's important we look at all variables involved to get the most valid possible ways of understand an interaction.
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I knew you want every AIDS people die .....

I catch you ........... :D
 
joelus said:
Absolute nonsense.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=125&art_id=vn20091217043448578C738560
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Alcoholics cannot receive livers regardless of how many are available. It it a moral and medical complication, that has (especially in this instance) resulted in the death of the patient. A doctor has an obligation to deny such patients transplants. So she ignored protocol and forced her way onto the list using her political influence, as I have already said.

On 12 August 2007, four days after the controversial dismissal of her deputy minister, Nozizwe Madlala-Routledge, the Sunday Times ran an article titled "Manto’s hospital booze binge" about a previous hospital stay in 2005 for a shoulder operation. The article alleged that she sent hospital workers out to fetch wine, whisky and food items, in one case at 1:30 am. Tshabalala-Msimang threatened legal action against the newspaper on the grounds that they were in possession of her medical records. The paper defended its statements, stating that "a retraction was not under consideration". The article also reported speculation among "many top medical experts at state and private institutions, who refused to be named as they feared retribution from the health ministry" that her liver condition was alcohol-induced, cirrhosis.
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She clearly had no intention of changing and she deserved to die, as a result.

Think for yourself for once and don't believe all the ANC c**p that is fed to the media.
 
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timgaul said:
Alcoholics cannot receive livers regardless of how many are available. It it a moral and medical complication, that has (especially in this instance) resulted in the death of the patient.
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Really, I don't remember that being in the constitution...

Please show me documentation that alcoholics cannot receive livers.
And a link to the article you quoted would help too...
 
joelus said:
Really, I don't remember that being in the constitution...

Please show me documentation that alcoholics cannot receive livers.
And a link to the article you quoted would help too...
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I can't beleive you asked that :wtf::D
 
Kosmik said:
I can't beleive you asked that :wtf::D
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:wtf: You can't believe I asked what? If you're going to quote something you need to reference it, what's the problem (even if I did know it was the Sunday Times, you still need to link to it)
 
joelus said:
Really, I don't remember that being in the constitution...
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I don't remember the constitution prohibiting you from attempting to swim to China or from using a lampstand as a suppository.

You asked about alcoholism and candidacy for liver transplants and were given the answer.

Now we know why Manto didn't go to her own governments hospital for treatment. Disgusting actually.
 
joelus said:
:wtf: You can't believe I asked what? If you're going to quote something you need to reference it, what's the problem (even if I did know it was the Sunday Times, you still need to link to it)
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Actually it just shows your ignorance on the subject but lets carry on.
 
daveza said:
http://www.persfin.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=707&fArticleId=4845228
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OK! Well, seems a bit unfair - alcoholism is a disease itself...
It's irrelevant though, the (many) doctors and surgeons still claim to this day
that she had hepatitis and her liver failure was not due to alcohol. So either they are all lying and continue to lie or maybe she did have hep. As for her being an alcoholic... Well, the Sunday Times has been known to be wrong before (frequently) so I'll go with what the doctors who were named say, rather than "speculation among many top medical experts at state and private institutions, who refused to be named".
Also note, that while I can't find that original Sunday Times article online I did find this:
Dr Elmin Steyn, president of the Southern African Transplantation Society, denied the possibility of any underhand dealings in Tshabalala-Msimang's transplant, or that she was bumped up the waiting list.

"The minister got the liver transplant in accordance with valid medical principles . the waiting list for livers is generally not very long. She did not get the liver undeservedly."
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http://www.timeslive.co.za/sundaytimes/article66322.ece
 
joelus said:
OK! Well, seems a bit unfair - alcoholism is a disease itself...
It's irrelevant though, the (many) doctors and surgeons still claim to this day
that she had hepatitis and her liver failure was not due to alcohol. So either they are all lying and continue to lie or maybe she did have hep. As for her being an alcoholic... Well, the Sunday Times has been known to be wrong before (frequently) so I'll go with what the doctors who were named say, rather than "speculation among many top medical experts at state and private institutions, who refused to be named".
Also note, that while I can't find that original Sunday Times article online I did find this:

http://www.timeslive.co.za/sundaytimes/article66322.ece
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Alcoholism is not a disease. It's a life choice. She chose to keep on drinking after killing her first one.
 
joelus said:
so I'll go with what the doctors who were named say, rather than "speculation among many top medical experts at state and private institutions, who refused to be named".
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You'll probably agree with the doctors who confirmed that Shaik was in the final stages of terminal disease.
 
daveza said:
You'll probably agree with the doctors who confirmed that Shaik was in the final stages of terminal disease.
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Maybe I would if I had to choose between a number of different Doctors who are willing to state in public what they diagnose as opposed to nameless sources who could have been made up, or be a disgruntled ex-employee or whatever and smacks of conspiracy theory...
 
Epic derail but...

Kosmik said:
Alcoholism is not a disease. It's a life choice. She chose to keep on drinking after killing her first one.
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Really?
The National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and The American Society of Addiction Medicine define alcoholism as "a primary, chronic disease characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking."[7] The DSM-IV (the dominant diagnostic manual in psychiatry and psychology) defines alcohol abuse as repeated use despite recurrent adverse consequences.[8] It further defines alcohol dependence as alcohol abuse combined with tolerance, withdrawal, and an uncontrollable drive to drink.[8] (See DSM diagnosis below.) Within psychology and psychiatry, alcoholism is the popular term for alcohol dependence.[8] Note that there is debate whether dependence in this use is physical (characterised by withdrawal), psychological (based on reinforcement), or both.
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Psychiatric geneticists John I. Nurnberger, Jr., and Laura Jean Bierut suggest that alcoholism does not have a single cause—including genetic—but that genes do play an important role "by affecting processes in the body and brain that interact with one another and with an individual's life experiences to produce protection or susceptibility." They also report that fewer than a dozen alcoholism-related genes have been identified, but that more likely await discovery.[52]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism#Medical_definitions

The term "alcoholism" refers to a disease known as alcohol dependence syndrome, the most severe stage of a group of drinking problems which begins with binge drinking and alcohol abuse.
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http://alcoholism.about.com/od/about/a/alcoholism.htm

For most adults, moderate alcohol use is not harmful. However, nearly 17.6 million adults in the United States are alcoholics or have alcohol problems. Alcoholism is a disease with four main features:

* Craving - a strong need to drink
* Loss of control - not being able to stop drinking once you've begun
* Physical dependence – withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating or shakiness after stopping drinking
* Tolerance - the need to drink greater amounts of alcohol in order to get “high”
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http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/alcoholism.html
 
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