[May 2013..Dec 2013] The Gauteng E-tolling Thread

[Sneeky]

Can they not provide even the latest collated figures or have they never collated it at all?

Nazir Alli says 700 000 with his chest out The spokesperson says he doesn't know and they don't know, however the question they were asked was different.

Alli supplied a total (which OUTA disputes), Mona was asked to differentiate between business, government, fleet and general public.

My guess is that Mona has the numbers he just does not want to disclose them as that will just at fuel to the disobedience campaign.

 

[Jola]

I have done plenty of corrections myself and they work - https://www.waze.com/wiki/Best_map_editing_practice#Toll_roads. If I was a level 3 editor on Waze and a frequent user of those sections, I could mark the stretch as toll-road myself. Would be helpful if you can explain or link why it does not work?

Because it is no good to mark it as a toll road.

I don't want to avoid toll roads, I only want to avoid toll gantries, and to do that you have to mark them as obstructions / avoidances.

But the way Waze works, if a few drivers go through the obstruction, Waze automatically removes the obstruction.

So in its present form Waze cannot work, just take my word for it, or read the instructions.

I repeat, I DO NOT WISH TO USE THE AVOID TOLL ROADS feature, that is not the objective.

The only devices that I have found that have useable custom avoidances, are the high end Garmins, such as the 3597.

 

[MrGray]

Can they not provide even the latest collated figures or have they never collated it at all?

They know precisely how many they've sold and how many are registered. They're hoping for a last minute rush before the end of the week, so that the figures might sound better by then.

 

[Wyzak]

Despite the lies told by Alli and that John Robbie is thick, the foreign ownership of the company that is collecting tolls is 84.88%. I suppose you could think that nearly 85% of the profit will be flowing offshore and that isn't too bad. Well, I'm guessing that there are some pretty hefty management fees before we even get there meaning that the amount could be higher depending on how much the 'locals' get screwed. And never mind the gouging that takes place on the capex part.

Yeah and the Guptas, Shaiks and Zumas own the other 15% no doubt.

 

[DJ...]

Yeah and the Guptas, Shaiks and Zumas own the other 15% no doubt.

No, they don't. Other influential comrades, and quite a few non-comrades own the rest. White, black etc...

 

[Wyzak]

Nazir Alli says 700 000 with his chest out The spokesperson says he doesn't know and they don't know, however the question they were asked was different.

Alli supplied a total (which OUTA disputes), Mona was asked to differentiate between business, government, fleet and general public.

My guess is that Mona has the numbers he just does not want to disclose them as that will just at fuel to the disobedience campaign.

I saw thousands of e-tags lying unbought in a PnP crate on Monday. I wonder if they also count as being 'sold'.

No, they don't. Other influential comrades, and quite a few non-comrades own the rest. White, black etc...

I'd love to see that list...

 

[Sneeky]

No, they don't. Other influential comrades, and quite a few non-comrades own the rest. White, black etc...

They published a list of companies some time ago that were involved in Scamrals project.
They claimed it was complete but it was later revealed that 2 company names were withheld from that list.
This is going from memory.
Has the full list been exposed as yet?

I saw thousands of e-tags lying unbought in a PnP crate on Monday. I wonder if they also count as being 'sold'.

Taking your consignment stock numbers/stock in the field as sales is, well, dumb.

So I suppose it is highly possibly that that is indeed the case

 

[Tman*]

If I was in charge of OUTA I would have stationed a person outside each E-toll Mall outlet store.

Just a random person minding their own business, counting the volumes (or lack their of) that go pass through the shop.

If we could assume that each person that walked in would in fact buy a E-tag (I suppose its actually less, because some people just go in to register) we can estimate how badly SANRAL is lying to us...

On the other hand SANRAL will probably just hit back and say, although sales of E-tags have been low at our mall outlet stores, people are "flocking" to buy them at Checkers!

 

[DJ...]

They published a list of companies sime time ago that were involved in Scamrals project.
They claimed it was complete but it was later revealed that 2 company names were withheld from that list.
This is going from memory.
Has the full list been exposed as yet?

I didn't see anything about that. I know that TMT are making a fortune, and their directors are not all black, nor comrades, which appears to be the assumption going around. Moss Mashishi certainly is, but the beneficiaries of this are not all comrades...

 

[LazyLion]

 

[Sinbad]

R4.20 per kilometer. Fork.

 

[MKFrost]

View attachment 85149

And the next notification is from their clients to their clients and to their clients until in the end the consumer pays for the tolls 10 times over....

So in essence we will end up paying our own tolls and that of any transport/logistics company and the knock-on effect from there....

 

[XennoX]

So inflation will hit 8-10% this quarter I reckon?

 

[Wyzak]

View attachment 85149

And so it begins. The e-tolls will push up inflation into the double digits again and then they can implement double digit hikes on e-tolls.

 

[Sneeky]

 

[MrGray]

R4.20 per kilometer. Fork.

AS far as I can tell the rate for a heavy truck with an E-Tag is about R3 per km.

I have a feeling that a lot of these companies are seeing this as an extra profit point, as the supermarkets did with the plastic bag tax where they lied that they were being forced to charge by law.

Avis also seems to be quoting standard rates when they should be paying a fleet discount.

I reckon this is the reason why a lot of companies are so silent on the matter - SANRAL has given them a fat fleet discount and they know they can turn around and justify a higher increased charge to their clients, therefore, PROFIT!

 

[creeper]

So inflation will hit 8-10% this quarter I reckon?

Optimist

ETMs inflation index

 

[DJ...]

And so it begins. The e-tolls will push up inflation into the double digits again and then they can implement double digit hikes on e-tolls.

I don't think it will push inflation up to double digits. It might have a half a point or two to add, but it won't be as large as double digits. I expect that we might see a basket recalculation in our near future to minimise JHB logistics cost increases, to artificially reduce inflation. At least we'll have a measure of this as well and be able to call them out if they do...

 

[blunomore]

It has been said on here by a number of posters that for the system to collapse, a very large number of motorists would need to delay payment for as long as legally possible.

I think that the way in which those delays can be achieved (by way of querying invoices, requesting proof, objecting, etc etc.) has not been publicised far and wide enough in order to empower people as to the methods they should use.

How to publicise it EXTENSIVELY (without it being seen as incitement) is a major issue IMO.

 

[blunomore]

E-mail received from FF+:

Die Vryheidsfront Plus se hofaansoek om ‘n interdik te verkry teen die aanskakeling van die e-tolstelsel gaan op 2 Desember aangehoor word, ‘n dag voor die stelsel aanstaande maand in werking moet tree, sê adv. Anton Alberts, die VF Plus se parlementêre woordvoerder oor vervoer.

Adv. Alberts sê hy is baie positief dat die aansoek sal slaag en dat e-tol ter elfder ure gestuit kan word.

Van groot belang is ook die feit dat die staat kritieke tegniese foute begaan het met die aankondiging van die implementeringsdatum van e-tol.

Ingevolge die Sanralwet moes veertien dae verloop vanaf die aankondiging tot die inwerkingstelling van die E-Tolwet wat in effek beteken dit kan eers op 4 Desember in werking tree.

Die aankondiging hieroor kon ook net deur die minister gedoen word, terwyl dit in hierdie geval deur ‘n waarnemende direkteur-generaal gedoen is.

Hierbenewens het die kantoor van president Jacob Zuma vandag vir die eerste keer eers ontvangs erken op een van drie dringende briewe wat adv. Alberts die afgelope maande oor die grondwetlikheid van die E-Tolwet aan sy kantoor gerig het.

In sy eerste brief (gedateer 13 Junie 2013) wys adv. Alberts met ‘n regsmening daarop dat die wet verkeerdelik geklassifiseer is. Die regsmening geniet wye erkenning in regskringe en is later net so deur ‘n ander politieke party gebruik wat ook ‘n aansoek teen e-tol wil bring.

In twee opvolgbriewe (10 September en 3 Oktober 2013) het adv. Alberts aangedring op ‘n antwoord op sy vrae en op ‘n afskrif van die president se regsmening oor die saak nadat verneem is dat die president se regsadviseurs met adv. Alberts saamstem.

“Die feit dat daar nie op my vrae geantwoord is nie en dat die president geweier het om sy regsmening bekend te maak, maak dit duidelik dat my versoeke doelbewus verswyg is tot kort voor die aanskakeling aangesien dit die E-Tolwet in sy spore sou stuit.

“Die VF Plus, sy vennote en sy regspan is vas daarvan oortuig dat die interdik toegestaan sal word en dat ons ‘n belangrike oorwinning sal behaal vir alle padgebruikers wat meen dat e-tol ‘n onregverdige en onnodige vorm van belasting is,” sê adv. Alberts.

English version:

The Freedom Front Plus’ court application for an interdict against the switching on of the e-toll system will be heard on 2 December in the Gauteng North High Court in Pretoria – a day before the system is to be switched on, Adv. Anton Alberts, the FF Plus’ parliamentary spokesperson on transport says.

Adv. Anton Alberts has said that he is quite positive that the application will succeed and that the e-toll will be stopped at the last minute.

What is also of great importance is that the state has made critical technical errors with the announcement of the implementation date of the e-toll.

In terms of the SANRAL Act, there has to be a fourteen day difference between the dates on which the commencement of the e-toll is announced and the date on which the actual implementation of the system will take effect, which in effect means that the system can only start operating on 4 December.

The announcement about this can furthermore only be made by the minister, while in this instance the announcement was made by an acting director-general.

In addition, the office of president Jacob Zuma has for the first time today officially acknowledged receipt of one of three urgent letters which Adv. Alberts had directed to his office in the past couple of months regarding the constitutionality of the E-Toll Act.

In his first letter (dated 13 June 2013), Adv. Alberts showed in a legal opinion that the Act had been wrongly classified in Parliament. The legal opinion enjoys wide recognition in legal circles and was later used, as is, by another political party which also wants to bring an application against the legality of the E-Toll Act.

In two letters sent subsequently, (10 September and 3 October), Adv. Alberts insisted on a reply to the questions he had posed in his letter and asked for a copy of the president’s legal opinion on the issue after it was established that the president’s legal advisors had agreed with Adv. Albert’s legal opinion.

The fact that there was no response to my questions and that the president had refused to reveal his legal opinion, makes it clear that my requests had been kept quiet purposefully until shortly before the switching on of the system, as the E-Toll Act would have stopped it in its tracks.

“The FF Plus, its partners and its legal team are all convinced that the interdict will be granted and that we will achieve a victory for all road users who are of the opinion that the e-toll is an unfair and unnecessary form of tax,” Adv. Alberts says.