Microsoft ... you just plain suck

[pookfuzz]

So bb_mat, the only question that remains is can the users actually do what they need to?

 

[bb_matt]

Well, that goes right back to my initial post that I believe Linux is ready for the office desktop, but the office isn't ready for it.

The simple fact is, Linux is ready for mainstream desktop use, but the mainstream isn't ready for Linux.

I have no agenda here for promoting Linux - I'm typing this on windows, I've got another windows box running to my right, a slackware box at my feet and a linux firewall to my left. In the other room is my brothers Mac (he's working from my place inbetween offices)

I don't know where Linux is going to go on the Desktop - it's improving on a monthly basis, but the promise of it having a big impact "this year" has failed to happen for the last 3 years running.

It is hyped, there's no dought about that, yet there's also a lot of FUD being bandied about.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle. (as usual)

 

[Perdition]

Unfortunately a tard user is a tard user regardless of the OS running on the machine. There is only so much you can do to mitigate user naiveness/stupidity. Though I'm generally an MS supporter I believe there is place for all operating systems as competition fuels innovation even if it means just playing catch up. I agree with bb_matt that it really isn't constructive to have an "us vs them" attitude. I do get riled up when people state that A OS Rulz0rz and B OS Sux0rs. If the latter OS was really that bad NOBODY would be using it. I used to be a network admin and set up quite a few Windows networks and once they were up and running there were VERY few problems. In fact I left the field because the most interesting problem of the day was clearing a paper jam in one of the printers.

The moral of the story is that all operating systems have their uses and all operating systems have their niggles, you just need to decide what's best for your particular application.

 

[kb]

Don't you like a multi-flavoured, multi-faceted world ?
I certainly do.

Without MyADSL - Telkom 2400bps dialup@ZAR 10k pm?
Without Linux etc. - MS-DOS@US$1000?
...
..
.

Monopolistic practices coupled with blinkered views are the root of many of the the problems we are faced with.
You got it right bb_matt - anyway i'm completely OT.

 

[Clipse]

Without MyADSL - Telkom 2400bps dialup@ZAR 10k pm?
Without Linux etc. - MS-DOS@US$1000?
...
..
.

Monopolistic practices coupled with blinkered views are the root of many of the the problems we are faced with.
You got it right bb_matt - anyway i'm completely OT.

That is truely well said in the cheapest form imaginable

 

[kilps]

From my personal experience as someone who can generally navigate my way areound a computer ( ) - I find that windows is easy enough to use but it really pisses me off when something big happens like a blue screen etc, then I don't know what to do (and incedentaly neither do my 'support') - when I try out uBuntu I can navigate fine, run FF, type a word document, even install a new version of FF - but when it comes to getting a wireless network to work or installing from the command line I am stumped. Its not that I don't want to learn its just that I am not sure how to (winmodems suck). I can use Mac OS 9 perfectly well (although the whole screen frezzing bit isn't cool) and when I am lucky enough to get onto OS X i can do what I want to do - but that comes from prior experience with OS9.

I think Linux needs to seem less alien, Windows less error riden and (to my experience - I hav't used the OS that much) people just have to go and try out OS X and work it out. Infact you always need to work it out - its just how easy it is.

 

[Darth Garth]

There is a reason why Ubuntu is doing so well allready, all of this and more has been made just as good as windows. Do yourself a favour and check it out, Mr. No ****all.

My word .... you obviously have no clue when it comes to ease of use.

A colleague recently bought a Fijitsu-Siemens Amilio laptop which came preinstalled with XP.

So we used Ubuntu (the one before Hoary Hedgehog) and the lame a$$ text installer if you can call it that rather sucked when it came to partitioning the drive bombarding the poor user with crap such as mount points and all that unix gobbledly gook.

Then Ubunto or XConfig could not detect his video card and the desktop would not boot up even when we tried svga.

I threw the CD in the trash and suggested using a distro not based on old school Debian.

 

[kb]

The Mac has a big cd eject key on the keyboard. Can’t get much easier than that and on windows most people just press the button on the front of the drive.

On kde how would this work? Press button on front of drive a mysteriously nothing happens, not exactly what I would call intuitive. You have to go unmount the disk first.

Since this thread is tending towards "ease of use" (use that term reservedly) here's a real life analogy.

Why isn't the indicator switch on a motor vehicle on the side I expect it to be?
If it's not should I dismiss that vehicle as being difficult to drive?

Here's what happens regularly with myself. - For more years than I can care to remember, the vehicles that I have driven have had the indicator on the left. However whenever I step into another vehicle (even if it is the same make and model as the vehicle I drive daily) my immediate reaction is to use the right hand when indicating (yes I am right handed). I have seen the same behaviour from other people who were born and learnt to drive on a different continent on the "wrong" side of the road.

What I am getting at here is that there are some things that we need to accept even though we may never fully adapt to them and I think that to many "ease of use" arguments are based around the point that - "because it didn't do what I expected - it's no good for the rest".

Having said that, I agree that there are a lot of things in the computer "ease of use world" that could probably be done differently and find just about universal acceptance.

 

[TheRoDent]

The only other credible and worthy suck free alternative is Apple but the G5 is too expensive.

Will agree on that last one.

 

[TheRoDent]

So the millions of Windows 98SE home users sent in their PC's to Microsoft to be upgraded to 2000 or XP ???.

Only a Linux zealot would come up with such a moronic argument.

Recompile kernel? Yeah. Right. Linux hardware auto-detection and modules have come a long way...
The point is that it doesn't help to frigging WHINE about Microsoft's practices, yet you're still unwilling to give Linux a shot. Whining about spyware on Windows whilst for a general surfing, chatting, office desktop Linux can provide the same sans the spyware is moronic. It does exist. No alternative operating system, even MacOs is without it's downsides.

There are no Linux zealots. Just Windows bigots.

A colleague recently bought a Fijitsu-Siemens Amilio laptop which came preinstalled with XP.

So we used Ubuntu (the one before Hoary Hedgehog) and the lame a$$ text installer if you can call it that rather sucked when it came to partitioning the drive bombarding the poor user with crap such as mount points and all that unix gobbledly gook.

Then Ubunto or XConfig could not detect his video card and the desktop would not boot up even when we tried svga.

Do you know how many pieces of Windows incompatible hardware I've come across in my life, with even MORE crap than what you described?

I'm not saying Linux is for everyone. But if you're willing enough to whine about how sucky Windows is, then you must be willing enough to find a solution. Several exist. And it doesn't have to lie in the Windows camp.

I'm not a Linux zealot. But if the platform (windows) is such a spyware riddled platform, then there is room for change. And with change, comes issues. Embrace change, or continue whining about windows. Bill Gates moved the cheese. I don't care either way. I've freed my life of a large portion of Windows, and have saved a lot of money, and whining.

 

[bb_matt]

Do you know how many pieces of Windows incompatible hardware I've come across in my life, with even MORE crap than what you described?

Oh g0d yeah !
The worst I've experienced are internal modems. The first thing you have to attempt to get windows to do is to "see" a COM port other than COM1 and COM2, as some of these cards were permanently set to run as COM3 or COM4.
Gahh, I wasted days trying to get those suckers to work - I admit that this was under win95, that evil beast of an OS.

Things have improved with winXP, the main problem is poor drivers, which can't be blamed on microsoft - I'd say 1 piece of hardware in 5 will give me a little bit of trouble and they would totally stump your average user.

Two things recently - my Sandisk card reader, you have to right click on the .inf file and choose "install" before windowsXP knows what to do with it.
A Umax scanner, windowsXP does the traditional "can't find device" and you have to resort to the old win95 tricks of manually pointing it to specific files.

One poor aspect of windows is something that microsoft obviously did to try to make it easier for the average joe, but it backfires - that is the idea that whenever you plug in a piece of hardware, windows will try to install it for you even if it can't find the drivers. That's not a problem for your more knowlegable user, who will just ignore the "found new hardware" prompts and use the drivers off the install disk, but for your average user, it's going to confuse them.

As for Linux, about the most tricky thing I can remember in the last 3 years or so is getting Nvidia drivers installed - X will work with the standard nv driver, but if you want hardware accelleration, you have to get your hands dirty.

It all leads to the fact that average users need geeks to help them get stuff installed no matter what OS they are using.

I will say that it IS easier for the novice user to install devices under windows than it is under Linux, but things are improving on that score.

I gave Mandriva LE a spin the other day (as I like to keep up on these things) and was impressed that they've perfected the CD detection/automount and USB devices - truly plug and play.

Windows bigots may say "well big whoop de doo", to which I'd reply, "Mandriva is free"

 

[Clipse]

These windows users probably just pirate their copy anyways, mentally I bet they believe its free. *spit again*

 

[bb_matt]

pirate windows ? - who would do such a thing !

 

[bekdik]

And without Windows where would Linux be?

Pretty much unused and unusable by the masses. is my guess.

How long was *nix around prior to Windows?

 

[pookfuzz]

1969, *nix has been around awhile. Microsoft did not even exist until 1975.

Windows was invented in 1985, Xwindows predates this by one year. Having arrived in 1984.

 

[bekdik]

1969, *nix has been around awhile. Microsoft did not even exist until 1975.

Windows was invented in 1985, Xwindows predates this by one year. Having arrived in 1984.

Exactly. And its market penetration is what compared with Microsoft?

Gates recognized that easy usability was required in order to reach his goal OS a computer in every home and MS has stuck to that goal from Windows inception. Up to that time computers on pretty much all platforms were a geeks domain and most platforms have continued to be.

And, yes, I am aware of Apple and Smalltalk! I didn't say MS invented usability as the goal. Just that they have been the most successful at it. All others are now playing catchup.

 

[Clipse]

Erm no, Gates had a smooth ride by stealing from others(ye not going to mention names again but *** they were stupid)

The only thing in Gates advantage since then, hes a great marketing EXPERT, yes thats what Ill call him, He can sell **** on a block to the masses and they wont say no.

Hes the Oprah and Dr. Phil of the Software industry.

 

[Darth Garth]

Erm no, Gates had a smooth ride by stealing from others(ye not going to mention names again but *** they were stupid)

So from whom exactly Clipse did he steal stuff or are you talking out of your behind again ??? .

 

[eye_suc]

Your a bit clueless and not really that nice a person either.

MS stole DOS way back in the day, then licenced it to IBM and made their first fortune.

They didnt steal it per se, but they bought it for next to nothing.

MS has sinced continued licencing software and this is where they make their money. BUCKETloads of money. I dont think I can imagine how much money MS has...

 

[Darth Garth]

MS stole DOS way back in the day, then licenced it to IBM and made their first fortune.

They didnt steal it per se, but they bought it for next to nothing.

And since when does making a very smart business deal make you a thief ???.

Look at the facts surrounding the deal and realize nobody got ripped except that nobody realized including MS what a hit the IBM PC would eventualy turn out to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QDOS

Instead, Microsoft purchased a nonexclusive license for QDOS—by then being marketed under the name 86-DOS—from Seattle Computer Products in December 1980 for $25,000.

In May 1981, Microsoft hired Tim Paterson to port QDOS to the IBM-PC, which used the slower and less expensive Intel 8088 processor and had its own specific galaxy of peripherals around.

In July 1981, a month before the PC's release, Microsoft purchased all rights to 86-DOS from SCP for 50,000 USD.