MWEB - Message from CEO - Acceptable Use Policy

[SlowHands]

I thought about this long and hard, and yes I've made some posts in this thread where I was angry with MWEB etc etc, but at the end of the day I think I have to admit I'm a happy customer, taking all things into consideration.

Couple of things: 4mb uncapped (MWEB) vs couple of local only accounts for downloads (various ISP's)

Pro's:
1 Account - with MWEB uncapped, I don't have to worry about switching between accounts couple of times during the month when it gets capped
Price - this month so far (with MWEB) I've manage to download about 3 times as much as I would when I had my local only accounts (100Gb), and MWEB is costing me less than those local only accounts
Pings - good enough for gaming
Uncapped - so far this is true (for me at least)

Cons:
Shaping - yes I know the account I'm using says uncapped...but then the CEO of MWEB mustn't go everywhere announcing that there is NO shaping in off-peak hours!!! What I would like to know however, is the percentage of shaping enforced during the different hours of the day...or the "pool sizes" during the different hours of the day. In my mind it doesn't make sense...I've seen my download speeds pick up at 6pm EVERY SINGLE NIGHT (weekdays) but to only like 65kb/s, where my line CAN do 420kb/s (avg). Now I appreciate the fact that shaping needs to be applied, but hell not so low please. I'm almost convinced that normal HTTP traffic will NEVER take as much bandwidth as p2p traffic, but seeing my line download at only 65kb/s I'm wondering what MWEB does with all the extra bandwidth. Why not just limit p2p to 50% say between 6pm and 12pm, and then maybe from 12pm to 6am push up the p2p traffic to 70 or 80%.
Vague T&C's - people getting disconnected with no clear explanation why!

This is what I could think of now...maybe I'll add something later.

 

[Chevron]

Someone mentioned earlier that "power user" account would confuse people. So why not an addon onto the normal accounts for like R200pm then you aren't shaped as much? Does not have to be complete unshaping.

 

[killadoob]

Someone mentioned earlier that "power user" account would confuse people. So why not an addon onto the normal accounts for like R200pm then you aren't shaped as much? Does not have to be complete unshaping.

Then how would mweb sell their 1999 unshaped product?

 

[Tanya35]

I thought about this long and hard, and yes I've made some posts in this thread where I was angry with MWEB etc etc, but at the end of the day I think I have to admit I'm a happy customer, taking all things into consideration.

Couple of things: 4mb uncapped (MWEB) vs couple of local only accounts for downloads (various ISP's)

Pro's:
1 Account - with MWEB uncapped, I don't have to worry about switching between accounts couple of times during the month when it gets capped
Price - this month so far (with MWEB) I've manage to download about 3 times as much as I would when I had my local only accounts (100Gb), and MWEB is costing me less than those local only accounts
Pings - good enough for gaming
Uncapped - so far this is true (for me at least)

Cons:
Shaping - yes I know the account I'm using says uncapped...but then the CEO of MWEB mustn't go everywhere announcing that there is NO shaping in off-peak hours!!! What I would like to know however, is the percentage of shaping enforced during the different hours of the day...or the "pool sizes" during the different hours of the day. In my mind it doesn't make sense...I've seen my download speeds pick up at 6pm EVERY SINGLE NIGHT (weekdays) but to only like 65kb/s, where my line CAN do 420kb/s (avg). Now I appreciate the fact that shaping needs to be applied, but hell not so low please. I'm almost convinced that normal HTTP traffic will NEVER take as much bandwidth as p2p traffic, but seeing my line download at only 65kb/s I'm wondering what MWEB does with all the extra bandwidth. Why not just limit p2p to 50% say between 6pm and 12pm, and then maybe from 12pm to 6am push up the p2p traffic to 70 or 80%.
Vague T&C's - people getting disconnected with no clear explanation why!

This is what I could think of now...maybe I'll add something later.

It's quite obvious that MWEB plays with the shaper settings. They won't ever tell you to what degree. What we need is a number or other indicator to say "Shaping INTENSIVE/ HEAVY/MEDIUM/LIGHT" so we know.

 

[Tanya35]

No they never hid the fact that they are going to shape it
if you don't like the shaping then take the unshaped account
oh wait that costs more
Hmmm maybe that is because MWEB just wants to steal all your money and make you pay double the amount that it is costing them

I wonder why there is no other ISP that could get these prices before MWEB since the way you see it MWEB is ripping people off and stealing their money
So there should be a huge market for small ISP’s who only wants to make a 10% profit (since MWEB must be making 100%+ right) from their connections to give you nice cheap internet

Tanya please open your own ISP with prices the way you want them I want to join your connection (for the first week maybe)
Since it will be dirt cheap and and no shaping will mean that you will get the biggest uptake in clients ever
Until you actually have to pay your staff and Seacom for the Bandwith and Telkom interconnect fees
And for the servers and switches and buildings

Big surprise here MWEB actually wants to make a profit from their connections
They did not put multiple millions (if not billions) of Rands into their IPC network to make a loss
An yet they still came out with a price that made the other ISP’s moan about the low cost

As with all good products, a greedy company decides to change the ingredients and skim off more profit. That's it in a nutshell. If you don't like it they've always got a more expensive product to steer you to.

 

[SlowHands]

got home this afternoon and I see my p2p (NZB's) are running fast at avg 350kb/s

(for now) looks like MWEB is getting things right

 

[Tharaxis]

As with all good products, a greedy company decides to change the ingredients and skim off more profit. That's it in a nutshell. If you don't like it they've always got a more expensive product to steer you to.

Lets do some (very) rough math to figure out whether that's the case:

Lets say their total user base is 70,000 (based on some forum posts here and ignoring that that includes business users), and based on some estimations lets say that user base is split maybe 60% 384K users, 10% 512K users and 30% 4mbit users, lets also say that to provide 384K of uncapped access using their current shaping it costs them roughly R90 p/m, so it comes to *about* 23c per kilobit of uncapped access.

That means that 384K costs R90p/m, 512K costs R117p/m and 4mbit costs R942p/m to provide. You can already see that 4mbit runs at a loss, that hopefully can be offset by the revenue earned from the 384 and 512K users.

M-Web charges you R219p/m for 384K access, R299p/m for 512K and R539p/m for 4mbit (line costs not included).

That means that per user per month the following is gained/lost:
384K: (219 - 90) = R129 per user per month.
512K: (299 - 117) = R182 per user per month.
4mbit (539 - 942) = R-403 per user per month.

Now lets figure out how many users they have for each speed bracket:
384K: (70,000 * 50%) = 35,000
512K: (70,000 * 20%) = 14,000
4mbit: (70,000 * 30%) = 21,000

So if we multiply it out we can see how much in total is gained or lost:
384K: 35,000 * R129 = R4,515,000 p/m
512K: 14,000 * R182 = R2,548,000 p/m
4mbit: 21,000 * R-403 = R-8,463,000 p/m

Meaning that overall using the above figures they would LOSE R1,400,000 per month.

Now maybe you can see why they're happier to have more people on the 384K and 512K accounts than on the 4mbit ones, and why they're wanting to push the heavy 4mbit users over to their more expensive business products which help cover the actual cost of providing the service. Also of note, changing the cost per kilobit by just 3c (23->26c) results in losses increasing to over 4 million, showing how small changes can have huge effects on revenue at the types of scale we're talking about.

Anyway, just let me state again, these figures are very (VERY) rough estimations given certain costs I'm aware of, there could be (and very likely are) other aspects that would impact the profitability of the product which are not factored in here. Don't take it as an indication of the true revenue/profit/loss being made by M-Web.

 

[sand_man]

As with all good products, a greedy company decides to change the ingredients and skim off more profit. That's it in a nutshell. If you don't like it they've always got a more expensive product to steer you to.

Look so much has been said, written and speculated about MWEB and their "uncapped offerings" but jokes aside, anyone pulling in excess of 40gigs a month on a 4mb package @ R539 per month is getting an outstanding deal. Consider Afrihosts cutting edge 2 for 1 offer that gets you a gig @ R14-50.

For me really the bottom line is cost per gig and on that basis alone nothing comes close to value than MWEB's uncapped. I don't like the fact that sometimes one has to wait days to pull a torrent or Rapidshare file but generally the product is an absolute pleasure to use... My experience, of course based on a 4mb account. 384kbps is a different matter altogether...

 

[Kosmik]

Thraxis, the one thing I would consider is that the avg 4Mbps user is not maxing his line out nearly as many times as a 386k or 512k, hence the 4Mbps users provide a far greater pool than the others, that is also why thier price is so heavily discounted. But that is also why they are the first to go as a 4Mbps user maxing their line avoiding the shaping, will do 1.5Gigs/hour which is a theoretical max of 33Gigs in a 24hr period.

 

[Kosmik]

Look so much has been said, written and speculated about MWEB and their "uncapped offerings" but jokes aside, anyone pulling in excess of 40gigs a month on a 4mb package @ R539 per month is getting an outstanding deal.

Only in the eyes of our previous disadvantage in lack of international cable capacity. Mweb is a damn good deal, no buts about it but please don't compare it to legacy data costs that should have gone the way of the dodo a year ago already.

 

[SlowHands]

Lets do some (very) rough math to figure out whether that's the case:

Lets say their total user base is 70,000 (based on some forum posts here and ignoring that that includes business users), and based on some estimations lets say that user base is split maybe 60% 384K users, 10% 512K users and 30% 4mbit users, lets also say that to provide 384K of uncapped access using their current shaping it costs them roughly R90 p/m, so it comes to *about* 23c per kilobit of uncapped access.

That means that 384K costs R90p/m, 512K costs R117p/m and 4mbit costs R942p/m to provide. You can already see that 4mbit runs at a loss, that hopefully can be offset by the revenue earned from the 384 and 512K users.

M-Web charges you R219p/m for 384K access, R299p/m for 512K and R539p/m for 4mbit (line costs not included).

That means that per user per month the following is gained/lost:
384K: (219 - 90) = R129 per user per month.
512K: (299 - 117) = R182 per user per month.
4mbit (539 - 942) = R-403 per user per month.

Now lets figure out how many users they have for each speed bracket:
384K: (70,000 * 50%) = 35,000
512K: (70,000 * 20%) = 14,000
4mbit: (70,000 * 30%) = 21,000

So if we multiply it out we can see how much in total is gained or lost:
384K: 35,000 * R129 = R4,515,000 p/m
512K: 14,000 * R182 = R2,548,000 p/m
4mbit: 21,000 * R-403 = R-8,463,000 p/m

Meaning that overall using the above figures they would LOSE R1,400,000 per month.

Now maybe you can see why they're happier to have more people on the 384K and 512K accounts than on the 4mbit ones, and why they're wanting to push the heavy 4mbit users over to their more expensive business products which help cover the actual cost of providing the service. Also of note, changing the cost per kilobit by just 3c (23->26c) results in losses increasing to over 4 million, showing how small changes can have huge effects on revenue at the types of scale we're talking about.

Anyway, just let me state again, these figures are very (VERY) rough estimations given certain costs I'm aware of, there could be (and very likely are) other aspects that would impact the profitability of the product which are not factored in here. Don't take it as an indication of the true revenue/profit/loss being made by M-Web.

I think that's a well thought out breakdown on pricing Tharaxis. The only thing is...we as the customers didn't advertise 4mb "uncapped" @ R539...MWEB did, so therefor we only want what was advertised...plain and simple.

ps I spoke too soon earlier...exactly at 6pm my download speeds went down to avg 60kb/s...weird thing is between 4pm and 6pm it was flying.

 

[Tharaxis]

Thraxis, the one thing I would consider is that the avg 4Mbps user is not maxing his line out nearly as many times as a 386k or 512k, hence the 4Mbps users provide a far greater pool than the others, that is also why thier price is so heavily discounted. But that is also why they are the first to go as a 4Mbps user maxing their line avoiding the shaping, will do 1.5Gigs/hour which is a theoretical max of 33Gigs in a 24hr period.

That's why I estimated the cost per *shaped* kilobit be 23c, if it's unshaped it might be higher (only by a couple of cents), though there is a break even point (and the more bandwidth M-Web can purchase as they grow, the lower that per kilobit cost gets). This was just to indicate that it's very likely 4mbit on the consumer side suffers losses that are only offset by the higher cost of the business package. Their average revenue across all 4mbit users is probably just above what it takes to provision 4mbits. The point is that M-Web (and ISP's in general) aren't swimming in money, despite popular belief. Their margins are in fact (especially as a % of revenue) very slim.

 

[Tharaxis]

I think that's a well thought out breakdown on pricing Tharaxis. The only thing is...we as the customers didn't advertise 4mb "uncapped" @ R539...MWEB did, so therefor we only want what was advertised...plain and simple.

ps I spoke too soon earlier...exactly at 6pm my download speeds went down to avg 60kb/s...weird thing is between 4pm and 6pm it was flying.

Well I think that's where we differ, because I believe that given what they've legitimately advertised they have delivered - they didn't just fall off the bus one day and decide "lets do uncapped", they have actually put some thought behind it. Irrespective of the odd gnashing of teeth (I also get ticked off at slowness at times) I think it's not too bad. Anyway, the point is that to expect more out of the 4mbit package (where M-Web is essentially giving it away to you) is unrealistic.

 

[SabreWolfy]

Well I think that's where we differ, because I believe that given what they've legitimately advertised they have delivered - they didn't just fall off the bus one day and decide "lets do uncapped", they have actually put some thought behind it. Irrespective of the odd gnashing of teeth (I also get ticked off at slowness at times) I think it's not too bad. Anyway, the point is that to expect more out of the 4mbit package (where M-Web is essentially giving it away to you) is unrealistic.

+1

 

[AntiThesis]

Mweb is absolutely untouchable if you go by cost per gb - someone pulling 100GB a month would be sitting at R5.39 per gb. Lovely. It's just if you want 4mb uncapped, unshaped with no rules about being an abuser that it's not so lovely. One day perhaps there won't be a need to restrict people but for now...

 

[Mike43110]

I just want to know what all is considered abuse.

I have in one day had to do 20 gigs now as I have redownloaded my windows .iso from Microsoft(free student licesnses ftw) had to get inventor + autocad + matlab aswell.

Now I am probably going to be labeled a heavy user, which I am on occasion, not going to lie, but I will probably do < 1gig a day now, maybe < 500mb or lower, no more reason to get the internet.

 

[gregmcc]

Now I am probably going to be labeled a heavy user, which I am on occasion, not going to lie, but I will probably do < 1gig a day now, maybe < 500mb or lower, no more reason to get the internet.

I think your safe - thats not a lot of traffic. Its safe to do 300GB/month as long as you don't 'bypass' their shaping rules.

 

[PeterCH]

I think your safe - thats not a lot of traffic. Its safe to do 300GB/month as long as you don't 'bypass' their shaping rules.

You don't know that. And to do that much, you could have been bypassing their shaping rules. Hence, if MWEB actually said "It's ok to do 50GB/m with encryption, 250 without encryption. You are OK." then that would be cool. Otherwise don't kick people off and send them warnings so that individuals know when they are pushing the limit and can back off.

 

[Veneficus]

As with all good products, a greedy company decides to change the ingredients and skim off more profit. That's it in a nutshell. If you don't like it they've always got a more expensive product to steer you to.

Tanya where did they change the ingredients?
My package is pretty much the same since I got it.

And of course they show you the bigger package you are bitching and moaning about the shaping on the shaped packages.

You don’t have a clue what this is costing MWEB but you make statements about them taking more of the top

If you think they are doing you in then cancel your account with them
That is after all the ultimate “I’m not happy with your service” reply anyone can give.

In fact why haven’t you left them a long time ago?

 

[Chevron]

Then how would mweb sell their 1999 unshaped product?

Well besides it being unshaped it would have sat3 back up, same as the business package for the same price and of course it's unshaped. The power user account would only use seacom/eassy so if they go down you screwed. That's how it should stay cheap.

ps I spoke too soon earlier...exactly at 6pm my download speeds went down to avg 60kb/s...weird thing is between 4pm and 6pm it was flying.

I also find it weird that before 7am in the morning mweb thinks my line is a 512kb when it comes to torrents but after 7am during "peak" hours my torrent speeds increase. Makes no sense.