My EDGE/GPRS connection stops working when I buy a databundle...Help?

[ic]

The pre-paid billing system is fully real-time although the reservation system might make it appear as if it's not.

Ok noted .

When you terminate the session, the second system will return any credit (money/data) it had left to the first system.

The second system appears to have a slight deficiency, consider the following scenario: there are times when a customer's connection will effectively be "idle" with no IP packets being transmitted - especially when either the internet or internetvpn APNs are being used [since they are firewalled to prevent unsolicited external IP packets], now the 2nd system [the actual pre-paid Reservation & Data Usage Monitoring system] should detect inactivity as a lack of data usage after xx number of seconds, and should return reserved credit to the 1st system, however the 2nd system only appears to do this when there is a disconnect [the session is terminated]...

 

[vodacom3g]

Ok noted .The second system appears to have a slight deficiency, consider the following scenario: there are times when a customer's connection will effectively be "idle" with no IP packets being transmitted - especially when either the internet or internetvpn APNs are being used [since they are firewalled to prevent unsolicited external IP packets], now the 2nd system [the actual pre-paid Reservation & Data Usage Monitoring system] should detect inactivity as a lack of data usage after xx number of seconds, and should return reserved credit to the 1st system, however the 2nd system only appears to do this when there is a disconnect [the session is terminated]...

Hmm...not sure if this is practical. The question being how long do you wait before deciding the connection is idle? How much extra inter-system traffic will this create. I suspect that first IP transaction will be delayed (as the credit is requested and passed) and this might create a 'bumpy' user experience. But it is a logical question and I'll pass it on.

Question is what are we trying to fix:

1) Getting 'stuck' with less than 500KB? This was the biggest problem but has now been addressed.

2) Not knowing to the last byte when you go OOB? At most this is an 'error' of around 2MB. Most subs are managing this by making sure they have a monetary balance of R0 while the bundle is active. This allows you to use up the last byte without paying OOB.

Again, I wonder why this is not a problem on voice? The same scenario happens there. There is a reservation system and an 'in-bundle' 'out-of-bundle' concept.

 

[Iam3G]

Not surprised they use the same system.

Also, (as I indicated above), voice on pre-paid works exactly the same way, but you probably won't ever notice as you tend not to do an 'Airtime Balance' query while on the phone!

Unless you're using a Blueteeth headset

 

[vodacom3g]

Unless you're using a Blueteeth headset

Is that for multiple headsets, George?

 

[vodacom3g]

Those of you who had / have pre-paid bundle problems (gings / Rhyan / rappa / prom), can you confirm what size bundle you bought and when?

Think we nailed it.....

 

[ic]

Hmm...not sure if this is practical. The question being how long do you wait before deciding the connection is idle? How much extra inter-system traffic will this create.

That's why I suggested xx seconds of idle time instead of x seconds of idle time, also I suspect that the systems are already seeing additional inter-system traffic - specifically when a user perceives data flow to have stopped and manually disconnects and then reconnects which will likely place additional load on both system #1 and system #2, as well as increase data flow between both systems - especially relevant when this scales up to thousands of connections within a given unit of time.

Question is what are we trying to fix:

1) Getting 'stuck' with less than 500KB? This was the biggest problem but has now been addressed.

2) Not knowing to the last byte when you go OOB? At most this is an 'error' of around 2MB. Most subs are managing this by making sure they have a monetary balance of R0 while the bundle is active. This allows you to use up the last byte without paying OOB.

There could be a number 3 that has not been diagnosed yet...

Again, I wonder why this is not a problem on voice? The same scenario happens there. There is a reservation system and an 'in-bundle' 'out-of-bundle' concept.

One key difference between the pre-paid voice calls system(s) and the pre-paid data system(s), would be that billing for voice is based on a unit of time [per second, per minute or part thereof], whereas billing for data usage depends on the amount of data possibly interwoven with the fuzzy logic of the reservation system that tries to predict the rate at which data is being used where the rate is dependent on a unit of time...

 

[Prometheus]

My previous offer to you to join Vodacom and sort of of this out is still open. As I've indicated before, please PM me your CV and I'll immediately action it. We obviously need your superior expertise and knowledge.

Based on these and other comments from you on how the Vodacom systems should be improved, we need your help.

I obviously assume you are suitably qualified with relevant experience to build 'simpler' systems to serve a multi-million user base? I see you picked a forum signature (Prometheus) indicating superior knowledge and wisdom. So as a self-confessed expert, please come help us.

Please PM me your CV urgently. Money is no object, fill in whatever you want.

I don't think I understand babelfish. Anyway I don't claim to have superior knowledge of the Vodacom systems. However what I see is far from how things are supposed to be done. So let's go over it:

When a new system was implemented the first thing Vodacom did with it was to stop the "freeloading". No surprise there. Next thing that came was the minimum R1 to connect even on vlive! And btw, it was working fine before that "requirement". Then it was announced that ppdbs were working but not yet available. It was asked many times what will the terms and conditions be but all we got was that they were not yet finalized. Then all of a sudden ppdbs without even a peep. No input from users as to how we would want it to work obviously.

Now six months later all these problems that could have been solved way back in January if Vodacom implemented all these fixes when they should have been implemented namely the testing phase. I'm sure even you can see the logic in this?

Now let us run down how things did happen instead:
Vodacom decided on the minimum R1 or 500kB to connect.
Vodacom decided that you can not buy a bundle while a bundle is active. It obviously bit them in the ass together with previous decision. Now it is "fixed" but probably causing this problem.
Vodacom decided that airtime should be deducted if available instead of stopping the connection after the bundle is depleted when most users will probably not have opted for this.

Do we see a pattern here...

 

[Rhyan]

** 1GB data bundle purchased on the 11th October (in the morning sometime)

 

[ginggs]

Those of you who had / have pre-paid bundle problems (gings / Rhyan / rappa / prom), can you confirm what size bundle you bought and when?

2GB bought 2007/10/13 at about 15:00.

Think we nailed it.....

Yup, seems fine now, thanks!

 

[Prometheus]

Again, I wonder why this is not a problem on voice? The same scenario happens there. There is a reservation system and an 'in-bundle' 'out-of-bundle' concept.

How do I buy a voice bundle?

Those of you who had / have pre-paid bundle problems (gings / Rhyan / rappa / prom), can you confirm what size bundle you bought and when?

Think we nailed it.....

2GB early morning of the 13th

That's why I suggested xx seconds of idle time instead of x seconds of idle time, also I suspect that the systems are already seeing additional inter-system traffic - specifically when a user perceives data flow to have stopped and manually disconnects and then reconnects which will likely place additional load on both system #1 and system #2, as well as increase data flow between both systems - especially relevant when this scales up to thousands of connections within a given unit of time.

A better solution may be that when you do a balance query the two gets added together and the new balance gets reported. This will still not solve the sms problem but instead of sending the sms the system may check if there is any data left and not send it until the next query is made.

 

[ic]

Vodacom decided that you can not buy a bundle while a bundle is active.

I'm not sure if that was how PPDBs worked from the start, but there is a danger that someone might unintentionally buy more than one PPDB if they are impatient and don't wait for the first PPDB purchase to be confirmed via SMS, it is of course possible to implement more complex checks to see if a pending PPDB purchase request already exists and if it does then prevent subsequent PPDB purchases - in the possible but unlikely event that there might be some delay in processing the first PPDB purchase request. The simple solution is usually better than the complex alternative.

Vodacom decided that airtime should be deducted if available instead of stopping the connection after the bundle is depleted when most users will probably not have opted for this.

As much as I would prefer a hard-capped PPDB system, if one uses a pre-paid SIM card for data only [i.e. no outgoing voice calls] then the option exists to have a pre-paid balance that tends towards R0.00, that achieves the same effect, unfortunately this doesn't help the TopUp customers that seem to use the same SIM card and phone for both voice and data. And then there are ordinary contract data customers that really do need a hard-capped CDB option.

 

[vodacom3g]

OK, it seems the problem was specifically with 1 and 2G bundles. Should be sorted now although they were running batch jobs to look for and fix any other instances.

Thanks to gings who helped doing some tracing for us.

 

[Prometheus]

Yup, seems fine now, thanks!

Nope, not here.

On another note 9.90MB was taken on the 7th when I only used 6.24MB. My connection stopped and when I checked my balance my bundle was "offline". Obviously system #2 could not give the data back to system #1 because it wasn't working so it just threw it away.

I'm not sure if that was how PPDBs worked from the start, but there is a danger that someone might unintentionally buy more than one PPDB if they are impatient and don't wait for the first PPDB purchase to be confirmed via SMS, it is of course possible to implement more complex checks to see if a pending PPDB purchase request already exists and if it does then prevent subsequent PPDB purchases - in the possible but unlikely event that there might be some delay in processing the first PPDB purchase request. The simple solution is usually better than the complex alternative.

I could ask what happens in the unlikely event that there is a delay anyway. If the request is not yet processed and another request is submitted there would be no way to know this. The system prevents another purchase after the bundle is already active. Loading bundles in succession would be preferrable but adding them together is even better. I wonder what this "threshold" is where you can still purchase a bundle while you have an active one, could be a temporary solution to the no roll over fault.

As much as I would prefer a hard-capped PPDB system, if one uses a pre-paid SIM card for data only [i.e. no outgoing voice calls] then the option exists to have a pre-paid balance that tends towards R0.00, that achieves the same effect, unfortunately this doesn't help the TopUp customers that seem to use the same SIM card and phone for both voice and data. And then there are ordinary contract data customers that really do need a hard-capped CDB option.

Unfortunately most people use a bundle with extra airtime remaining and would prefer a hardcap. It's obvious that Vodacom's interest lies elsewhere. Don't forget the prepaid contract customers that get airtime every 30 days and if you use it to buy a bundle you would be credited again before your bundle expires so you run the real risk to accidentally waste it all.

 

[vodacom3g]

I don't think I understand babelfish. Anyway I don't claim to have superior knowledge of the Vodacom systems. However what I see is far from how things are supposed to be done. So let's go over it:

When a new system was implemented the first thing Vodacom did with it was to stop the "freeloading". No surprise there. Next thing that came was the minimum R1 to connect even on vlive! And btw, it was working fine before that "requirement". Then it was announced that ppdbs were working but not yet available. It was asked many times what will the terms and conditions be but all we got was that they were not yet finalized. Then all of a sudden ppdbs without even a peep. No input from users as to how we would want it to work obviously.

Now six months later all these problems that could have been solved way back in January if Vodacom implemented all these fixes when they should have been implemented namely the testing phase. I'm sure even you can see the logic in this?

Now let us run down how things did happen instead:
Vodacom decided on the minimum R1 or 500kB to connect.
Vodacom decided that you can not buy a bundle while a bundle is active. It obviously bit them in the ass together with previous decision. Now it is "fixed" but probably causing this problem.
Vodacom decided that airtime should be deducted if available instead of stopping the connection after the bundle is depleted when most users will probably not have opted for this.

Do we see a pattern here...

Yes, we do.

As per usual you're making uninformed statements instead of asking...

- The R1 or 500KB is a system requirement.

- What 'previous problem'? What is now 'fixed'? The way pre-paid is working now is how it always worked. Where was pre-paid different in the past?

- You were probably not included in the user polls. Live with it. Do BMW call you every time they intend to build a new car? Or Microsoft when they launch a new product? What were you're recommendations to the Banks on their new rates? Did you recommend they list it by 50 base points?

You must be a busy boy with all this giving feedback to the large corporations on their product strategies. No wonder you don't have time to come and sort out all the problems you've identified with the Vodacom systems.

Companies design and build products and put them up for sale. Ultimately their success is tied to people buying or not buying these products. No one can force anyone to buy from them.

It's called a free market system. Use it.

 

[rappa]

Those of you who had / have pre-paid bundle problems (gings / Rhyan / rappa / prom), can you confirm what size bundle you bought and when?

Think we nailed it.....

2gig bundle, purchased 12Oct @ 17:45 - problems seem to be resolved, thanks

 

[Prometheus]

Yes, we do.

As per usual you're making uninformed statements instead of asking...

I may not know Vodacom's system (you know the one so rigid you could play cricket with it) but I think I know enough about how systems function or are suppose to function. If you're talking about how Vodacom staff systems function that may be another issue but then who is to blame for the lack of transparency.

- The R1 or 500KB is a system requirement.

Who decided on this system requirement? It's a wonderful coincidence that R1 equates to exactly 500kiB and that R1 is such a nice round figure. I don't know what dictionary you are using but mine says that a requirement is something indispensable. Meaning can't do without. There shouldn't be any reason this could not be reduced or done away with altogether. If I can use my whole balance before the connection dies there is no reason I shouldn't be able to connect with any amount.

- What 'previous problem'? What is now 'fixed'? The way pre-paid is working now is how it always worked. Where was pre-paid different in the past?

The problem where we couldn't use our bundle but couldn't buy a new one either, remember?

- You were probably not included in the user polls. Live with it. Do BMW call you every time they intend to build a new car? Or Microsoft when they launch a new product? What were you're recommendations to the Banks on their new rates? Did you recommend they list it by 50 base points?

I do not recall any polls. We aaked how it would work but received no answer. I did not see any voting on if the connection should go on or die after the bundle is depleted. The decisions made by separate institutions are not comparable with those made by corporations whos services we pay for. There is only one type of bundle to choose from instead of 100 cars. Consumers should be consulted on decisions that could adversely affect them. Does R10k ring a bell?

You must be a busy boy with all this giving feedback to the large corporations on their product strategies. No wonder you don't have time to come and sort out all the problems you've identified with the Vodacom systems.

I am only interested in the products I am using or intend on using.

Companies design and build products and put them up for sale. Ultimately their success is tied to people buying or not buying these products. No one can force anyone to buy from them.

It's called a free market system. Use it.

Not much of a free market system if there's only basically two products to choose from and both are on the same basic terms.

Now if we can get logical answers why all this is so after 2.5 years in the making I'll accept. Btw it's not working yet.

 

[Rhyan]

Wo0t!! My internet is alive and kickin' again

Thank you, V3G!

 

[Prometheus]

Wo0t!! My internet is alive and kickin' again

Thank you, V3G!

Grrrrrrrrr

 

[ic]

@Prometheus, what v3g is trying to explain to you, is that the pre-paid data system is based on and has evolved from the pre-paid voice system, and pre-paid voice has always required a minimum balance in order to make a call or send an SMS or MMS etc, so it does make sense that pre-paid data also has a minimum balance requirement in order to successfully connect, it also makes sense that pre-paid data is not exactly the same as pre-paid voice, so the minimum requirements to use pre-paid data will be slightly different to those of pre-paid voice.

Also, v3g has indicated that a fix has been implemented for the problem where one cannot buy another PPDB near the end of an existing non-expired PPDB, the fix that v3g posted about in this thread, is sufficient IMO, and doesn't require reducing the minimum R1.00 pre-paid balance that I suggested earlier in this thread based on my own unclear understanding of how the system actually works which v3g clarified earlier in this thread.

We could continue to debate this R1.00 requirement ad infinitum, however the system is not far off from the way you want it to work, IMO the only issues that remain unresolved are the hard-capping when a PPDB is depleted [instead of going into OOBR territory], and the disconnect pre-requisite for system #2 to return credit back to system #1.

 

[vodacom3g]

I may not know Vodacom's system (you know the one so rigid you could play cricket with it) but I think I know enough about how systems function or are suppose to function. If you're talking about how Vodacom staff systems function that may be another issue but then who is to blame for the lack of transparency.

Again, if you're such an expert, come sort it out. But of course you can't. Reality is you've got no clue on a subject on which you're very fond to make profound statements. Invariably they're warped...

What is your background by the way? What did you study or what are your main subjects at school? Obviously not anything technical.

Who decided on this system requirement? It's a wonderful coincidence that R1 equates to exactly 500kiB and that R1 is such a nice round figure. I don't know what dictionary you are using but mine says that a requirement is something indispensable. Meaning can't do without. There shouldn't be any reason this could not be reduced or done away with altogether. If I can use my whole balance before the connection dies there is no reason I shouldn't be able to connect with any amount.

You obviously did not read my previous posts on how all this works. Or did you not understand it? Thought you're the expert?

The problem where we couldn't use our bundle but couldn't buy a new one either, remember?

Only if you disconnected within the last 500KB. This has now been resolved.

I do not recall any polls. We aaked how it would work but received no answer. I did not see any voting on if the connection should go on or die after the bundle is depleted. The decisions made by separate institutions are not comparable with those made by corporations whos services we pay for. There is only one type of bundle to choose from instead of 100 cars. Consumers should be consulted on decisions that could adversely affect them. Does R10k ring a bell?

There is absolutely no difference between buying a car or buying a data bundle. You do your research, decide which product you want and, if the pros outweighs the cons, then you buy it.

Vodacom runs constant user surveys. There's a whole department dedicated to this. You really think they'll spend millions developing a product that won't have an ROI? Economics 101, but then you probably not doing economics at school either.

Vodacom built a product. It's your decision if you want to use it. No-one is forcing you to buy it. (Or did someone hold a gun to your head?) I know Vodacom did its best to come up with a product that will have a broad appeal within the constraints of what can be done. And continuously try and adjust it to better suit user requirements.

Hundreds of thousands of people are using it. If you don't like it, don't use. A free market remember?

Not much of a free market system if there's only basically two products to choose from and both are on the same basic terms.

There are many more than two players, each with multiple products, thousands in total if you include the WISP's. Maybe do some reading on the subject?

Or, if there is such a gap in the market, why don't you start your own broadband company? You're already an expert, now go and do it. Just remember to come here and explain every single decision you made and put polls out on how your company should be run and how the products should be structured.

Now if we can get logical answers why all this is so after 2.5 years in the making I'll accept. Btw it's not working yet.

There's been plenty logical answers on this forum. I spend my weekends typing them up. Read them.