network hog myth. uncapped proper usage != piracy.

Thank you Necuno - think this ought to help clarify what can be termed as proper bandwidth use. :)

Great stuff, indeed. Seems the rest of the world have continued whilst us South Africans lagged behind with our piddly 3gb caps...
 
Dude you are the 1% of people who use 100-150gb for something other than piracy. So please i understand what you are saying but i also do not try and delude myself and others into thinking people are not pirating when they have high usage. Now try and counter with your tampon in because without i fear you may get violent again. Young shytes, so now piracy is limited to young people? How young 12, 14, 20?

Simple answer is for companies for block the pirate networks totally during the day, or just throttle them like mweb do. Mweb have no worries if you use 100-150gb for piracy or 20 games and 10 linux distro's a month every month while remotely working and video conferencing all day long.
 
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Thank you Necuno - think this ought to help clarify what can be termed as proper bandwidth use. :)

Great stuff, indeed. Seems the rest of the world have continued whilst us South Africans lagged behind with our piddly 3gb caps...

exactly. those are only the tips of the icebergs we can play around with on a decent uncapped. we are so lagged behind that some think they MUST abuse to the last bit and byte, that only people who actually use a lot of bandwidth are all 100% illegal and can't possible be for anything else.
 
Yes yes, and wugs are for voip to your buddies and playing multiplayer games...
Blank cds/dvds are for making backups of your games/music/movies.
 
Ok necuno, let's do this.

3 months @ 120gb a month with not a single pirated item.

Tell me how in 3 months you would use 360gb of data with not a single pirated file. Break it down dude as in how linux distro's would have been downloaded, how many games, how many hours you video conference and for how etc.

I would actually be interested to know how a person who does not pirate can use 120gb a month every month. Bare in mind i do not care if someone pirates just interested to see how non pirates go about chowing 120gb a month. Also to stream an hd what is the cost just as matter of interest per movie?
 
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Why should I not say +1? Admittedly, I could have typed agreed, but I've got nothing more to add, only that I fully agree with him ;) And your precious 'legit' bandwidth hogs that actually use it for site testing, etc etc, are in the extreme minority. You know that as well as I.

+1 :D
 
Ok just my 2cents, are you arguing LEGAL CONTENT or NETWORK HOGGING? This is 2 different issues. There's no denying there are plenty of ways to clog up the network with legal content, the real issue is, how many people actually do said legal activity.Just because it's legal does NOT make it any less "network hogging" . If you upload your 50GB database backup every day, when you live 2 blocks from the office, seriously..that is network hogging.

In fact the only way something is not "network hogging" is when the ISP have infinite capacity available and/or YOU have a dedicated line [no contention ratio] . Since this is NOT the case with any of these uncapped offerings, i can pretty much tell you now, if you're using extensive bandwidth you are network hogging...does not matter what you do.

Necuno said:
steam - anything from 500 meg up to 10 gig per game title legally bought.

ign - patches, demos, previews and clips of mostly games. also can get quite huge thinking of nowadays demos weighing in at least 1gig+. not to forget HD streams and so on from them.

direct 2 drive - mostly same idea as steam. buy a game and download it directly, aslo anything from 500 meg up to 10 gig.

beta testing of games - yep online testing of coming mmos and even some other non mmo developers does this. anything from 2 to 5+ gig a shot. then there will also be the constant patches and content being added to the beta testing.

test clients (mmo) - some of us likes to play around on the test clients of mmos and that too can get a lot to download at times. the test client which normally equals the non-test client (5+ gig) and as well as the patches and content being added and removed on a more than normal basis.

Voicy -
game development videos - 60-100mb each

This is not the average user type of activity though. This is a very specific PC-gamer type, of which i don't believe there are that many (compare to the SA internet community at large). Even buying more than 1 game a month from Steam/D2D is not what i'd consider "average". Beta'ing MMOs, even rarer. I think this forum attracts alot more internet-savvy types so it sounds like this would be a "normal everyday" activity, but it isn't.

Now i don't deny this activity/hobby DOES take alot of bandwidth and it is all legal as well. But admittedly if you actually play these games fully, [i.e. playing WoW] you won't use this much bandwidth every month either unless you're a serial-game-hopper and thus changing games every few days.


Necuno said:
vpn to work - just add a normal day of network traffic, documents you might work on and everything else that needs to be seen and worked on to complete an 8 hour day of work or less. also throw in some server administration and maybe some reporting on the side too, not to mention if you have to pull and push large files over the vpn.

upload of work - try doing some digital painting and design for someone in a foreign country, trust me uploading each set of raws can get really huge

Again, not your average user activity unless you work from home and then one can debate whether it makes sense to use this much bandwidth -out of your own pocket- for work without some sort of compensation. I don't deny this can take alot ob bandwidth, but sometimes copying that 80GB database backup on a hard-drive and driving over to the office seems more economical than using your consumer-based uncapped account for it. So i'd say this can be construed as "network hogging" to some people. So it depends on what exactly you're doing here, i don't think everyone would do this and especially not internationally to the extend that they NEED a consumer uncapped product just to do their job....

Now on the positive side, i do the following activities almost daily:

1. Stream Music from Last.FM/Pandora [this is legal] : +- 50-100MB an hour . [this service is basically like a radio station, which plays music based on how you rate the songs...kind of like a "personalised" radio station ]
2. Stream TV [episodic content] : +- 200-300 MB an hour [normal quality] . I don't do HD quality, since my 4 MB/s line can't handle it, nothing to do with uncapped, just pure international speed that is poor and inconsistent.

Now above 2 points i'd say is what alot of average people would most likely WANT to do if they have infinite bandwidth+speed . They don't want to use Usenet, or Torrents or look on dodgy spam-filled websites for content. It's nice to have a buddy to download all the stuff for you and you just copy it, but ultimately the copyright owners of said content would prefer you stream it since they have control over the content then.

I mean why are you going to download the ENTIRE Smallville collection, if you can just watch the episodes "on demand" ? This is what is happening. People want to see "The OC" , so instead of just going on a site and starting to watch, they load up Series 1-10 in their download managers and let it rip....100GB later they realise they don't actually like "The OC" all that much and now they want the Stargate SG-1 Collection ..again they download Series 1-10 ....another 100GB right there. Yet they can't even watch the content in the given month anyway......
 
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a little education for those who can't seem to grasp the concept that some of us actually really use the internet for other things than what they would normally associate usage with. however i suppose i can't really blame them if that is the only exposure they have been exposed to and automatically go ZOMG series, movies, games and applications when confronted with a lot of bandwidth or can't seem to realize how some other people are using more than what they would consider normal. clearly most or and some other people just don't know what else is out there imho...

...to the usage.
steam - anything from 500 meg up to 10 gig per game title legally bought.

ign - patches, demos, previews and clips of mostly games. also can get quite huge thinking of nowadays demos weighing in at least 1gig+. not to forget HD streams and so on from them.

direct 2 drive - mostly same idea as steam. buy a game and download it directly, aslo anything from 500 meg up to 10 gig.

beta testing of games - yep online testing of coming mmos and even some other non mmo developers does this. anything from 2 to 5+ gig a shot. then there will also be the constant patches and content being added to the beta testing.

test clients (mmo) - some of us likes to play around on the test clients of mmos and that too can get a lot to download at times. the test client which normally equals the non-test client (5+ gig) and as well as the patches and content being added and removed on a more than normal basis.

msdn/technet training - anything from 50-250meg a video can get quite a lot when you go though a few courses being presented.

msdn software - same as with beta/test clients if you go for application testing and excluding the released applications. normally from 1-3+ gigs. for releases software, well the normal sizes it would be like around 3 gig for windows 7.

vpn to work - just add a normal day of network traffic, documents you might work on and everything else that needs to be seen and worked on to complete an 8 hour day of work or less. also throw in some server administration and maybe some reporting on the side too, not to mention if you have to pull and push large files over the vpn.

HD streams via xbox - it starts at 2 gig a flick, goes up to 5/6 gig for proper HD flick via xlive. this does not include the total pay tv series you can get via sky i think. there is also the getting games with their direct 2 console thing. slap any released xbox game onto that which easily weighs in at around 7 gigs.

video conferencing - anyone who have done a bit of proper video conferencing know that it takes a lot of content in size.

upload of work - try doing some digital painting and design for someone in a foreign country, trust me uploading each set of raws can get really huge.


...and this is not even all of the things one could do to really use your bandwidth. bit tiresome of when some go ZOMG you must be pirate, how else can you use 50-150 gig a month ? or lol the isp geez these ****ers must only be into pirating since they decided they actually want to use our product and not just go some oom and tannie via facebook.


Update to list
Voicy -
game development videos - 60-100mb each

Pilgrim -
Online stores that sell digital copies, eg Amazon, Audible, iTunes (need international account for that, but possible) etc.
MMO with VOIP - over 3 gigs for w/e

warchylde -
Citrix - RDP tool when working from home
SIP/AIX (VOIP) - VOIP connectivity to Office PBX (this can be quite a hog)
Linux Distros
Linux Distro updates everytime a VM is reinstalled (between 450GMB and 1.5GB depending on what's installed)
Uploading of VM's to a datacentre.
Microsoft updates for test servers (no indication of amount.)

Nice summary only thing I disagree with is steam games only going upto 10 gig, new games like mass effect 2 and dragon age go up to the 13 and 16 gig range.

This is not the average user type of activity though. This is a very specific PC-gamer type, of which i don't believe there are that many (compare to the SA internet community at large). Even buying more than 1 game a month from Steam/D2D is not what i'd consider "average". Beta'ing MMOs, even rarer. I think this forum attracts alot more internet-savvy types so it sounds like this would be a "normal everyday" activity, but it isn't.



Might not be at the moment but give it a few years and this will quickly change. Digital distribution is now the prefered method to buy pc games in the US and large parts of europe. It hasn't really taken of here yet due to the fact that previously it was too expensive to pay for the games + extra gigs to download the game.
 
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Until HD streaming to your house becomes the norm there is not much you can say to me that 100GB+ EACH month is normal for the average user. Necuno you are part of I would guess not even 1% of the users out there that can explain their usage, and then I still have my doubts BTW. Doing more every so often, sure!! Doing more EVERY month, no freaken way!!
 
Actually what you do with your internet is your business. I don't wanna know about it. If you are doing something illegal... let the authorities worry about that.

If you want to use an uncapped account in an uncapped manner... that is your right and your prerogative. I won't blame you for using the account for what it was advertised.

Provisioning bandwidth is the ISPs problem, not mine. If they don't want me actually using the internet then don't sell me an uncapped product.

end of story.
 
but sometimes copying that 80GB database backup on a hard-drive and driving over to the office seems more economical than using your consumer-based uncapped account for it.

Uhm no :p our data centre is in the UK :p I don't do db's I do vm's and lots of them - I prep them here and then upload them to the dc.


"Again, not your average user activity unless you work from home and then one can debate whether it makes sense to use this much bandwidth -out of your own pocket-"

most companies argue that you should pay for this yourself as you are saving on fuel costs and vehicle costs. Personally I can't afford a business package otherwise I wulda dun it long ago.
 
Actually what you do with your internet is your business. I don't wanna know about it. If you are doing something illegal... let the authorities worry about that.

If you want to use an uncapped account in an uncapped manner... that is your right and your prerogative. I won't blame you for using the account for what it was advertised.

Provisioning bandwidth is the ISPs problem, not mine. If they don't want me actually using the internet then don't sell me an uncapped product.

end of story.

This is only an acceptable attitude if everyone has a dedicated line with a 1:1 contention ratio. As it is, ISPs have limited capacity providing unlimited products [which already should point out the problem here] means that 1 person using alot of bandwidth compare to the rest on the same line are ruining the experience for everyone else.

Surely you know how this works? If you share a line at home with 5 PCs , and your brother decides to constantly download files at full speed...don't tell me you are going to sit back and say "oh what you do on your internet is your business" . So guess what you are going to do? You are going to allocate/shape/throttle and PROVISION capacity to your brother instead....and that is exactly what ISPs are doing....are you complaining about this?

I suppose the only thing ISPs can do at this stage is simply renaming their packages not to say "uncapped" . Then no one here can say a thing, if people ask why no uncapped? Then ISPs have every right to say "because we don't have the capacity" . Will this make everyone happy? ISPs are not mysteriously going to conjure up true unlimited capacity, no matter how much WE justify our insane usage...
 
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Actually what you do with your internet is your business. I don't wanna know about it. If you are doing something illegal... let the authorities worry about that.

If you want to use an uncapped account in an uncapped manner... that is your right and your prerogative. I won't blame you for using the account for what it was advertised.

Provisioning bandwidth is the ISPs problem, not mine. If they don't want me actually using the internet then don't sell me an uncapped product.

end of story.

+1 :D there is no need to defend high usage, what we do is our business. Do not offer accounts if you cannot cope. Simple and straight forward.

Diabolis first off people downloading like crazy are not messing up mweb's network. Mweb are clever and throttle pirated network during the day and now at night which means for everyday BS it works super fast while allowing people to do a bit of downloading, don't blame the users for companies releasing products they cannot handle. It does not take a rocket scientist to realize if you offer uncapped people will download and download and download. It does take a pretty clever group of people to keep everyone happy though and thus far mweb are doing a superb job of it as are a few other isp's.
 
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This is only an acceptable attitude if everyone has a dedicated line with a 1:1 contention ratio. As it is, ISPs have limited capacity providing unlimited products [which already should point out the problem here] means that 1 person using alot of bandwidth compare to the rest on the same line are ruining the experience for everyone else.

Surely you know how this works? If you share a line at home with 5 PCs , and your brother decides to constantly download files at full speed...don't tell me you are going to sit back and say "oh what you do on your internet is your business" . So guess what you are going to do? You are going to allocate/shape and throttle your brother instead....and that is exactly what ISPs are doing....are you complaining about this?

If he didn't pay for it he must be prepared to get slapped though :) if he paid for it one can say nothing.
 
diabolus, do you think your average joe will have uncapped ?

Uhm no :p our data centre is in the UK :p I don't do db's I do vm's and lots of them - I prep them here and then upload them to the dc.

so was the last international client for some digital works. trust me it was a lot of uploading since raws don't come small.

Nice summary only thing I disagree with is steam games only going upto 10 gig, new games like mass effect 2 and dragon age go up to the 13 and 16 gig range.
fixed.

Actually what you do with your internet is your business. I don't wanna know about it. If you are doing something illegal... let the authorities worry about that.

If you want to use an uncapped account in an uncapped manner... that is your right and your prerogative. I won't blame you for using the account for what it was advertised.

Provisioning bandwidth is the ISPs problem, not mine. If they don't want me actually using the internet then don't sell me an uncapped product.

end of story.

Excellent, but as long as there are sides who think all you can do is illegal without just seeing it as *just internet usage*- it's going to be troublesome.
 
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Just as a matter of interest. In the past I have never touched steam because I dedicated almost all my BW to work stuff. Did Steam for the first time over the weekend. 16GB for mostly free games and demo's :s
 
Necuno said:
diabolus, do you think your average joe will have uncapped ?

That's the point of MWEB's package. I mean what do you think an ISPs business model is regarding uncapped? They are pricing it for the average joe, not for the hardcore user. The package will FAIL if there's no average joe using it. They are bargaining on users NOT using 100GB a month.

Before MWEB, uncapped was a hardcore user product and was priced accordingly [we're talking R3000+ a month for 4 MB/s uncapped here]. An average joe would not bother with it, and ISPs offering this product already knew who's going to use it and how it's going to used and therefore the price was with assumption of heavy usage.

+1 :D there is no need to defend high usage, what we do is our business. Do not offer accounts if you cannot cope. Simple and straight forward.

Diabolis first off people downloading like crazy are not messing up mweb's network. Mweb are clever and throttle pirated network during the day and now at night which means for everyday BS it works super fast while allowing people to do a bit of downloading, don't blame the users for companies releasing products they cannot handle. It does not take a rocket scientist to realize if you offer uncapped people will download and download and download. It does take a pretty clever group of people to keep everyone happy though and thus far mweb are doing a superb job of it as are a few other isp's.

Well you're basically saying "MWEB is clever because they know how to limit your usage without pissing you off too much". It means MWEB do not have infinite capacity either and they just happen to have a way to limit heavy usage without influencing the majority of users. The other ISPs obviously aren't there yet with this, both in terms of amount of capacity available and how they limit their users.....

...the fact of the matter is, even MWEB have a "network hogging" criteria and will limit you at some point.
 
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Unfortunately it's not your peers that makes this decision but big bullies like RIAA and their cronies. Look what they did in Aus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Australia

And don't think it will not happen here!!

Once we start down that road we have no more freedom. The internet is the ultimate symbol of freedom. <--- this is most likely going to start a whole other debate. Screw you conservative gov's for enforcing your views on us.
 
This is only an acceptable attitude if everyone has a dedicated line with a 1:1 contention ratio. As it is, ISPs have limited capacity providing unlimited products [which already should point out the problem here] means that 1 person using alot of bandwidth compare to the rest on the same line are ruining the experience for everyone else.

Surely you know how this works? If you share a line at home with 5 PCs , and your brother decides to constantly download files at full speed...don't tell me you are going to sit back and say "oh what you do on your internet is your business" . So guess what you are going to do? You are going to allocate/shape/throttle and PROVISION capacity to your brother instead....and that is exactly what ISPs are doing....are you complaining about this?

I suppose the only thing ISPs can do at this stage is simply renaming their packages not to say "uncapped" . Then no one here can say a thing, if people ask why no uncapped? Then ISPs have every right to say "because we don't have the capacity" . Will this make everyone happy? ISPs are not mysteriously going to conjure up true unlimited capacity, no matter how much WE justify our insane usage...

Actually, I really don't care what you think about it. It is none of your business what I do with my internet connection. That is between me and the ISP. Mind your own business.
 
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