Official Man United Supporters' Thread

[RanzB]

The only 2 standout players in that list are Rooney and Barkley.

So? You don't rate Coleman at all then?

Rooney was a no brainer, much like Januzaj. Moyes would've been slaughtered if he didn't play him.

Taking a chance on a great youth player is still taking a chance.

As for Barkley, he was sent out on loan last season, Moyes never played him.

Not true. He played 9 times under Moyes.

This season under Martinez, he's one of the best young players in England, being tipped for an England call up for the World Cup.

And you can say the same for Januzaj under Moyes.

 

[Unhappy1]

Aging squad isn't a myth, it's a squad game. Carrick, Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, RvP, Giggs, Fletcher. Our squad for the past few seasons have been based around Carrick, Vidic/Ferdinand

Vidic played 25 games over the previous two seasons, Giggs has barely played and obviously Fletcher also. Ferdinand more so but then you would have to ignore the fact that, Jones, Smalling and Evans are more experienced now and more in their prime than two seasons ago.

Who are our young players who have been consistently first team over the last couple of years when the entire team has been fit?

Rafael, DDG... ?

Jones, Evans, Rooney, Januzaj ( carried us at the beg of season). When Ferguson left he identified the backbone of the squad as Rvp, Carrick, Jones, Rafeal, DDG and Rooney/Kagawa. Rvp is 30, Carrick 32 so they aren't that old.

That's almost exactly a year old.

Yes, i said the start of the season.

 

[Unhappy1]

Regarding Moyes and youth

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...m-at-everton-claims-kevin-sheedy-9197521.html

 

[RanzB]

Regarding Moyes and youth

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/foo...m-at-everton-claims-kevin-sheedy-9197521.html

I don't see much point in that. If we listened to a disgruntled player like Hargreaves then United don't care about the health of their players unless it's to use them as guinea pigs.

 

[Stickfigure]

So? You don't rate Coleman at all then?

I can think of a lot of other players I'd have at United rather than him.

Taking a chance on a great youth player is still taking a chance.

Much less a risk than youth players who don't grab the headlines.

Not true. He played 9 times under Moyes.

I didn't mean literally. I meant he barely featured under Moyes compared to under Martinez now.

And you can say the same for Januzaj under Moyes.

Fair point but I still rate he would've broken through regardless. Teams were lining up in the summer to snatch Januzaj so Moyes' hand was forced. He's always been a special talent. Moyes didn't turn him into one.

 

[RanzB]

I can think of a lot of other players I'd have at United rather than him.

That doesn't mean anything in the context of this conversation. We can think of a lot of players other than Cleverly we'd have at United but the point is that SAF gave him a chance.

Much less a risk than youth players who don't grab the headlines.

Youth players grab headlines all the time, especially in today's media-driven world. Doesn't mean they get given chances.

I didn't mean literally. I meant he barely featured under Moyes compared to under Martinez now.

I responded to what you said. Barkley is still only 20. Moyes gave him a chance when he was younger than that.

Fair point but I still rate he would've broken through regardless. Teams were lining up in the summer to snatch Januzaj so Moyes' hand was forced. He's always been a special talent. Moyes didn't turn him into one.

Maybe he would have broken through regardless, sure. But we aren't dealing with a hypothetical. He was given a chance under Moyes. And a lot more than other 18 year old players might have been. He's played for us 29 times this season.

 

[RanzB]

Vidic played 25 games over the previous two seasons

And 47 times the year before that. And I see the point, which is why I alternated with Ferdinand/Vidic, because they've so rarely played together in recent years.

Giggs has barely played and obviously Fletcher also.

Which is why they weren't included in my evaluation of the spine, but rather the squad, which is my point.

Ferdinand more so but then you would have to ignore the fact that, Jones, Smalling and Evans are more experienced now and more in their prime than two seasons ago.

Except I didn't ignore it. I addressed that point. They haven't been first team in their positions, but squad players except for Evans who was excellent when paired with Ferdinand.

Jones, Evans, Rooney, Januzaj ( carried us at the beg of season).

Jones has never been consistently a first team player in his position before this season. Evans as I mentioned, I agree with, though he's been used as a stopgap when to pair whoever is injured from Vidic or Ferdinand. Rooney doesn't have a solid position, never has except for 11/12 and maybe 09/10. Januzaj was never played under SAF, so I wouldn't include him in the succession of SAF to Moyes.

When Ferguson left he identified the backbone of the squad as Rvp, Carrick, Jones, Rafeal, DDG and Rooney/Kagawa.

He can identify it all he wants, that wasn't the reality under SAF too often. Jones was never played consistently as a CB, Kagawa was never played consistently at all or in his postion. RvP is 30, Carrick is 32.

Also, I said aging squad. Not aged squad.

Yes, i said the start of the season.

Fair enough, but that would include Anderson, Nani, Cleverly etc who have had disappointing seasons and can't really be called upon to do much for us.

 

[Unhappy1]

I don't see much point in that. If we listened to a disgruntled player like Hargreaves then United don't care about the health of their players unless it's to use them as guinea pigs.

Although hes a current staff member at Everton, you could say its an employee butt hurt specifically at Moyes, however i dont think we should just dismiss it out of hand. I can provide posts and letters from Everton supporters expressing frustration at Moyes' unwillingness to play youth, especially Barkley if you like?

 

[RanzB]

Although hes a current staff member at Everton, you could say its an employee butt hurt specifically at Moyes, however i dont think we should just dismiss it out of hand. I can provide posts and letters from Everton supporters expressing frustration at Moyes' unwillingness to play youth, especially Barkley if you like?

You're welcome to. I wouldn't see the point. The reality is that Barkley was given a chance under Moyes, and was then loaned out at a young age, similar to what happened with Cleverly, Beckham, Powell etc. As I mentioned, Barkley is 20. Do you really doubt that Moyes wouldn't have played him at Everton when he thought he was ready? I find the Barkley criticism odd when we have an 18 year old who plays regularly for us under Moyes.

And I didn't dismiss it, to be fair. My point was that there's been one staff member who has hit out at Moyes over this, but more than a couple of players have been brought in from youth under Moyes at Everton. I suspect I can also post emails to football365 from fans criticising SAF for letting Pogba go and not letting youth have a chance when he brought back Scholesy.

 

[Unhappy1]

And 47 times the year before that. And I see the point, which is why I alternated with Ferdinand/Vidic, because they've so rarely played together in recent years.



Which is why they weren't included in my evaluation of the spine, but rather the squad, which is my point.



Except I didn't ignore it. I addressed that point. They haven't been first team in their positions, but squad players except for Evans who was excellent when paired with Ferdinand.




Jones has never been consistently a first team player in his position before this season. Evans as I mentioned, I agree with, though he's been used as a stopgap when to pair whoever is injured from Vidic or Ferdinand. Rooney doesn't have a solid position, never has except for 11/12 and maybe 09/10. Januzaj was never played under SAF, so I wouldn't include him in the succession of SAF to Moyes.



He can identify it all he wants, that wasn't the reality under SAF too often. Jones was never played consistently as a CB, Kagawa was never played consistently at all or in his postion. RvP is 30, Carrick is 32.

Also, I said aging squad. Not aged squad.



Fair enough, but that would include Anderson, Nani, Cleverly etc who have had disappointing seasons and can't really be called upon to do much for us.

Sorry to simplify your posts but this is interesting:

Side vs City

De Gea
Rafael
Evra
Carrick
Ferdinand
Jones
Cleverley
Fellaini
Rooney
Mata
Welbeck

Ave age 26.6

City's line-up
Hart
Zabaleta
Clichy
Fernandinho
Kompany
Demichells
Navas
Toure
Dzeko
Silva
Nasri

Ave age 28.2

Perhaps, you're confusing an ageing squad with a lack of quality or perceived lack of quality under Moyes. You cant claim the squad is ageing only to dismiss all the younger players because they aren't performing.

I suspect I can also post emails to football365 from fans criticising SAF for letting Pogba go and not letting youth have a chance when he brought back Scholesy.

It would be a valid criticism, United have accepted they made mistakes with Pogba and have made sure they were not to repeat those mistakes with Januzaj.

 

[RanzB]

Sorry to simplify your posts but this is interesting:

Side vs City

De Gea
Rafael
Evra
Carrick
Ferdinand
Jones
Cleverley
Fellaini
Rooney
Mata
Welbeck

Ave age 26.6

City's line-up
Hart
Zabaleta
Clichy
Fernandinho
Kompany
Demichells
Navas
Toure
Dzeko
Silva
Nasri

Ave age 28.2

And?

Perhaps, you're confusing an ageing squad with a lack of quality or perceived lack of quality under Moyes..

I don't quite get what you're trying to say. My point is that we have an aging squad, supplemented by up and comers - most of whom aren't first team regulars, or weren't first team regulars under SAF. Interestingly, your comparison above makes my point for me. I don't think there's a player in the City team above who is under the age of 25. Hence the higher average age, since most of the players are in their prime. There's no need to supplement with youth, especially since that once they've felt a player is past his sell-by date, they'll just go buy another player in his prime to replace him. Which is the exact opposite of giving youth a chance. So using them as an example makes little sense. In this case, average age tells us very little.

You cant claim the squad is ageing only to dismiss all the younger players because they aren't performing.

I never dismissed anyone, apart from Cleverly, Nani and Anderson above. I never said they weren't good enough. I said they weren't first team regulars, and were never bought/promoted to slot straight into the first team, DDG aside. Also bear in mind that two of them were not in the squad handed over by SAF.

Perhaps it just seems I'm dismissing "all the younger players" precisely because you simplified my post.

It would be a valid criticism, United have accepted they made mistakes with Pogba and have made sure they were not to repeat those mistakes with Januzaj.

Yes. But

(a) Just because it was a valid criticism against SAF, does it mean that SAF was always against youth? No. Same applies to Moyes.

(b) that was the least of my points from that reply.

 

[Stickfigure]

Dat lineup. Mmm Bayern must be licking their lips. Can see Fellaini being sent off.

 

[powermzii]

It's a Moyes-esque conservative team setup to not lose rather than win...

 

[Unhappy1]

And?

That was the line up that recently played City, i thought it was interesting and added to the debate.

I don't quite get what you're trying to say. My point is that we have an aging squad, supplemented by up and comers - most of whom aren't first team regulars, or weren't first team regulars under SAF. Interestingly, your comparison above makes my point for me. I don't think there's a player in the City team above who is under the age of 25. Hence the higher average age, since most of the players are in their prime. There's no need to supplement with youth, especially since that once they've felt a player is past his sell-by date, they'll just go buy another player in his prime to replace him. Which is the exact opposite of giving youth a chance. So using them as an example makes little sense. In this case, average age tells us very little.

My point is that you cant keep saying "ageing squad" when i've shown you our squads average age and first team line ups are below the norm through out the league, never mind just City. What you might be able to argue is that certain key players are ageing and that the younger players aren't pulling their weight, but that doesn't equate to an ageing squad issue, it equates more to a lack of quality within the younger players. Although i don't necessarily run with that idea as i feel its more management and tactic problems etc. It would however make more sense than just saying the squad is ageing when stats don't even tie up with that. You must also remember that older players are good to have in your squad, you need experience, its all about the right balance.

I never dismissed anyone, apart from Cleverly, Nani and Anderson above. I never said they weren't good enough. I said they weren't first team regulars, and were never bought/promoted to slot straight into the first team, DDG aside. Also bear in mind that two of them were not in the squad handed over by SAF.

Perhaps it just seems I'm dismissing "all the younger players" precisely because you simplified my post.

Except they are and were first team regulars, last season and this season. All played an important part in our title winning season. We're also not even talking about the players that i would consider in the prime age group like Rooney, Mata, Kagawa, Valencia, Young, Hernandez, Fellaini etc (i've probably forgotten some too). Granted some of those guys aren't good enough but that's not because of age.

Yes. But

(a) Just because it was a valid criticism against SAF, does it mean that SAF was always against youth? No. Same applies to Moyes.

Yes of course, imo with Moyes and youth we will only know how good he is at promoting it after +-5 years of managing United. All i was pointing out is that signs from his Everton days is that there is room for improvement.

(b) that was the least of my points from that reply.

Ok well i just picked out that point because i sort of agreed with the rest, although Everton supporters felt Barkley was ready before he turned 20, i know what you're saying.

 

[Unhappy1]

Another thing i would like to point out is the management of the older guys. I will use Ferdinand as a quick example, we all know hes got limitations and deficiencies, hes had them for a few years now. One of them is hes slow, so he got to play deeper and the other is he has to have a very specific training and playing schedule. Moyes has used him incorrectly tactically by playing him too high up the pitch at times but also more importantly, he run him into the ground at the start of the season. I remember him playing two games a week, for a good few weeks and he suffered quickly after that. We all know Ferdinand cant play that many games in a short space of time, yet our manager hasnt got a clue.

 

[Stickfigure]

That wasn't a hand ball?

 

[Unhappy1]

Our fullbacks are playing too narrow for my liking.

That wasn't a hand ball?

Welbeck? High foot.

 

[Suspect99]

Fellaini is so k@k. He just keeps on losing possession

 

[Unhappy1]

Fellaini is so k@k. He just keeps on losing possession

Dont worry, imagine what Moyes will do with more money

 

[powermzii]

Oh Danny boy.....