Official Super Rugby 2016 Thread

[Fulcrum29]

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/im-100-correct-insists-jonker-20160314

I'm 100% correct, insists Jonker

Watching the replays of the incident, it appears as though it was not Kolisi’s intention of kicking the ball out of Reinach’s grasp.

However, according to Jonker, it’s irrelevant whether it was Kolisi's intention or not.

“The rule does not deal with what a player’s intention was. If his foot did not make contact with the ball, then a try would in all likelihood have been scored. You also can’t award a penalty try if the incident does not warrant a yellow card,” Jonker told Netwerk24.

According to Law 10.2 (a), “A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored. A player who prevents a try being scored through foul play must either be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off.”

So now when you are going to score a try aim to put it down on the opposition player's boot to have the conversion under the posts. I still trust the committee to review this decision.

Silly silly silly…

 

[faniebraai]

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/im-100-correct-insists-jonker-20160314

I'm 100% correct, insists Jonker

So now when you are going to score a try aim to put it down on the opposition player's boot to have the conversion under the posts. I still trust the committee to review this decision.

Silly silly silly…

Jonker is a idiot. That is all. Can't see how that was foul play.

 

[CHURCHILL]

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/im-100-correct-insists-jonker-20160314

I'm 100% correct, insists Jonker



So now when you are going to score a try aim to put it down on the opposition player's boot to have the conversion under the posts. I still trust the committee to review this decision.

Silly silly silly…

Did the defenders leg/foot move towards the ball before it was grounded, or was the defenders leg stationary and the ball was aimed at the leg /foot.

 

[CHURCHILL]

Jonker is a idiot. That is all. Can't see how that was foul play.

This i agree with, it was not foul play and should not have been a yellow card.

 

[Fulcrum29]

Jonker is a idiot. That is all. Can't see how that was foul play.

Foul play can only be committed to under intention. The Sharks won, they were the better team on the day and there is no argue in that.

I'm quite disappointed in the TMO. My opinion is to give more input to the linesman, creating a council on TMO decisions.

 

[Solitude]

Law discussion:

http://www.rugby365.com/laws-referees/law-discussions/71734-law-discussion-best-foot-forward

 

[Stevi]

The Sharks got robbed in the 2007 final, this is just belated justice

 

[Cray]

Jonker is a idiot. That is all. Can't see how that was foul play.

Rule clarification from the IRB...

http://rugbyreferee.net/2015/09/17/law-clarification-kicking-ball-out-of-players-hands/

Clarification in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee

The designated members agree that it is illegal to kick the ball from the hands of a player in possession in any circumstances. An example of this action can be seen below. The sanction for this action should be a penalty against the offending team

So the penalty try was correct.

However the clarification only mentions that it is foul play if...

If contact is made with the hands of the player it can be considered foul play – this is difficult to see and to decide.

So not sure about the yellow card....

 

[Fulcrum29]

Law discussion:

http://www.rugby365.com/laws-referees/law-discussions/71734-law-discussion-best-foot-forward

In my opinion his opinion is wrong. Paul Dobson automatically assume that the ball was kicked. In accordance with the Rugby Laws which he sees as applicable, he elaborates,

What Kolisi did could well be described as a kick.

The commentator says it was not deliberately done. There is the matter of intention and accidental is mentioned. The law does not speak of intention at all. Kolisi was not forced to do what he did.

He could have avoided doing what he had done. He stride is a wide one to get his foot to the ball, his hands much further from the ball and with no chance of getting to it.

The part which I had put in bold is completely wrong, the Law in question,

According to Law 10.2 (a), “A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored. A player who prevents a try being scored through foul play must either be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off.”

As per Foul Play (Law 10) which was partially quoted by Dobson,

http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=10

(a) Intentionally Offending. A player must not intentionally infringe any Law of the Game, or play unfairly. The player who intentionally offends must be either admonished, or cautioned that a send off will result if the offence or a similar offence is committed, or sent off.
Sanction: Penalty kick

A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored. A player who prevents a try being scored through foul play must either be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off.

Thus, as per my previous post,

Foul play can only be committed to under intention.

In my perspective I did not see Kolisi indicate any intention to commit "Foul Play" or did as Paul Dobson described,

He stride is a wide one to get his foot to the ball, his hands much further from the ball and with no chance of getting to it.

in order to kick the ball.

As per Jonker

“The rule does not deal with what a player’s intention was.

and Dobson

The Laws of the Game have used various words to describe what a player does without an outside force compelling him to do what he did - intentionally, deliberately, voluntarily and even willfully. It probably means of his own accord, not forced to do what he did, of his own accord.

All that I can read here is that Jonker and Dobson had seen intention in Kolisi to kick the ball. I didn't see any intention.

 

[faniebraai]

Rule clarification from the IRB...

http://rugbyreferee.net/2015/09/17/law-clarification-kicking-ball-out-of-players-hands/



So the penalty try was correct.

However the clarification only mentions that it is foul play if...


So not sure about the yellow card....

Should be a penalty? Or penalty try?

And even if it is by accident?

 

[Cray]

Should be a penalty? Or penalty try?

And even if it is by accident?

My understanding is that if you commit any act that warrants a penalty and that act prevents a probable try then it should be a penalty try. The accidental/intentional part would be used to determine whether a yellow card is given or not (which I don't believe it should have been.

Occasionally a team will infringe, possibly preventing a try being scored. If the referee believes a try would have been scored had the infringement not occurred they can award a "penalty try

edit: If you look at the official world rugby site it says this...

Penalty try. A penalty try is awarded if a try would probably have been scored but for foul play by the defending team. A penalty try is awarded if a try would probably have been scored in a better position but for foul play by the defending team

Is any penalise able offence considered foul play or would there have to be intent?

 

[faniebraai]

My understanding is that if you commit any act that warrants a penalty and that act prevents a probable try then it should be a penalty try. The accidental/intentional part would be used to determine whether a yellow card is given or not (which I don't believe it should have been.

But how does it warrant a penalty? That's the part I don't understand.

 

[Cray]

But how does it warrant a penalty? That's the part I don't understand.

Well it depends on whether you think he kicked the ball out of his hands...

Clarification in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee

The designated members agree that it is illegal to kick the ball from the hands of a player in possession in any circumstances. An example of this action can be seen below. The sanction for this action should be a penalty against the offending team

If it was a kick then it's a penalty... if not then not.

 

[Fulcrum29]

Is any penalise able offence considered foul play or would there have to be intent?

Read Law 10 (Foul Play):

http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=10

Well it depends on whether you think he kicked the ball out of his hands...

That is why he was penalised and yellow carded. Jonker established that there was intention to kick the ball, Dobson supported this in his law discussion. In my opinion, as per an old rugby manoeuvre to stop a try on the line you need to get your boot under the ball which is the impression I had on what Kolisi was moving to do seeing that he did went in onto Reinach to stop his momentum.

Kaplan also provided his opinion,

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/kaplan-disagrees-with-penalty-try-20160314

However, it was debatable whether Kolisi’s actions were intentional and according to Kaplan, Reinach could also have been penalised for using his left arm to propel himself forward.

Kaplan commented on the matter via his official Twitter account and also felt that it was questionable that Kolisi’s actions could be deemed as a kick in the first instance.

Kaplan said Jonker did not look at the intentions of Kolisi, and from the evidence provided it is unclear that Kolisi ever had any intention to kick the ball out of Reinach’s grasp.

which is my pov as well.

 

[Fulcrum29]

Did the defenders leg/foot move towards the ball before it was grounded, or was the defenders leg stationary and the ball was aimed at the leg /foot.

I would suggest that opposition player move their legs towards the ball or else it would be a runaway game… the question is, did Kolisi had the intention to kick the ball?

 

[Cray]

I would suggest that opposition player move their legs towards the ball or else it would be a runaway game… the question is, did Kolisi had the intention to kick the ball?

A kick does not have to be intentional, you can accidentally kick someone/something. Intention goes towards the yellow card part, however if it is deemed that he accidentally kicked the ball out of Reinach's then it should still have been a penalty try.

 

[faniebraai]

A kick does not have to be intentional, you can accidentally kick someone/something. Intention goes towards the yellow card part, however if it is deemed that he accidentally kicked the ball out of Reinach's then it should still have been a penalty try.

I don't agree with that.

 

[Cray]

I don't agree with that.

Why? It was an act that was against the laws that prevented a try being scored. The relevant clarification from World rugby doesn't mention intent.

The designated members agree that it is illegal to kick the ball from the hands of a player in possession in any circumstances. An example of this action can be seen below. The sanction for this action should be a penalty against the offending team

 

[faniebraai]

Why? It was an act that was against the laws that prevented a try being scored. The relevant clarification from World rugby doesn't mention intent.

And that's the problem

 

[Fulcrum29]

Why? It was an act that was against the laws that prevented a try being scored. The relevant clarification from World rugby doesn't mention intent.

Which has to be in accordance with Law 10.2.A

Intentionally Offending. A player must not intentionally infringe any Law of the Game, or play unfairly. The player who intentionally offends must be either admonished, or cautioned that a send off will result if the offence or a similar offence is committed, or sent off.

Sanction: Penalty kick

A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored. A player who prevents a try being scored through foul play must either be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off.

To quote your part on Law 22.4.F

In this situation, defending players who are on their feet may legally prevent the try by pulling the ball from the tackled player’s hands or arms, but must not kick the ball.

Which goes back to having the intention to kick the ball.