on road handling fees

[xrapidx]

ASA want me to target one dealership - they say they cannot investigate car dealerships in general. (which kind of defeats the purpose of my email to them)

I don't really want to take on some random dealership I've had no dealings with. So if anyone else is in the process, feel free to give it a go.

 

[HapticSimian]

ASA want me to target one dealership - they say they cannot investigate car dealerships in general. (which kind of defeats the purpose of my email to them)

I don't really want to take on some random dealership I've had no dealings with. So if anyone else is in the process, feel free to give it a go.

You'd have received a much less charitable response from me - wasn't it one of these misguided crusades of yours that cost me the ability to use HTCSense's location service a few years back?

 

[xrapidx]

You'd have received a much less charitable response from me - wasn't it one of these misguided crusades of yours that cost me the ability to use HTCSense's location service a few years back?

Actually, it was my attempt to get it working, but nice try It was advertised as working, but didn't. Leaf finally admitted it didn't work, and were forced to remove the reference to it from their website/packaging/etc.

 

[HapticSimian]

Actually, it was my attempt to get it working, but nice try It was advertised as working, but didn't.

Worked fine on my phone, 'till the link disappeared.

 

[xrapidx]

Worked fine on my phone, 'till the link disappeared.

:erm: You do realize the entire service was stopped, not just in SA.

Not sure what link you're referring to as it sync'd to htcsense.com. South Africa was one of many countries where the service was reported as not working.

 

[HapticSimian]

:erm: You do realize the entire service was stopped, not just in SA.

Not sure what link you're referring to as it sync'd to htcsense.com. South Africa was one of many countries where the service was reported as not working.

The link, on htcsense.com, pointing to 'locate my device' or whatever the hell it said.

Yes, I know the service was stopped... much, much later than the official local discontinuation of the location function. That happened after your exchange with the ASA, when you could've just manned up & flashed a custom ROM to your phone.

Now... someone might need to drag this thread back on topic.

 

[xrapidx]

Talk about complete BS. The only thing ASA ruled was that they had to stop ADVERTISING the service worked for the Desire HD, but let your imagination run wild. The fact that you say "flash with a custom rom" is just more proof it didn't work as advertised.

 

[HapticSimian]

Talk about complete BS. The only thing ASA ruled was that they had to stop ADVERTISING the service worked for the Desire HD, but let your imagination run wild. The fact that you say "flash with a custom rom" is just more proof it didn't work as advertised.

Oh, lighten up. Do you think I'm terribly excited over what was always a poor service ceasing to work on a phone I haven't owned for near two years? This exchange just jogged a vague memory. And no, not only was the ADVERTISING changed, the functionality disappeared for those who actually had it working. 'Sides, in those early days of Android, you had to flash a custom ROM to get the phones working as advertised.

Back to the topic at hand, how do you propose getting rid of these fees, or incorporating them into the price fairly? How do you get around the differences in cost from one region to another? Do you adjust advertised prices along with the monthly adjustment to the fuel price, or do you expect dealers to simply absorb the cost? The fees represent a necessary ancillary cost - some, or even most, dealers misusing it as an almost pure source of additional revenue is the fault of the individual dealer, not of the principle.

 

[xrapidx]

How do you think every other industry get round it, its worked into the advertised price? Clothing, household appliances, technology, electronics, they all have exactly the same challenges.

Why bother advertise a different price to what you're actually selling it at?

A fridge doesn't land at a dock in Durban/Cape Town/PE and magically appear in Johannesburg/Polokwane at the store for free, yet it costs the same at Game in Cape Town than it does all the way up there.

 

[HapticSimian]

How do you think every other industry get round it, its worked into the advertised price? Clothing, household appliances, technology, electronics, they all have exactly the same challenges.

Why bother advertise a different price to what you're actually selling it at?

A fridge doesn't land at a dock in Durban/Cape Town/PE and magically appear in Johannesburg/Polokwane at the store for free, yet it costs the same at Game in Cape Town than it does all the way up there.

Yes, but Game down by you and Game here by me are both Massmart stores, so the cost is shared nationally. Have you any idea how many holding companies there are who own car dealerships, not even mentioning all the little independent dealers? Never mind the added complication that no two dealers will have the same costs relating to workshops, cleaning staff, outsourcing of licensing, hell... the cost of diesel, and a myriad other costs associated with getting a new car road-ready. It's simply not feasible.

 

[xrapidx]

Every other industry has those exact same overheads, but in different departments.

 

[HapticSimian]

Every other industry has those exact same overheads, but in different departments.

Once at dealership level there is no industry; outside of holding companies like McCarthy's, or Barloworld, or CMH, or whoever else, dealerships operate wholly independently from one another. Just as you don't pay the same for a Bar One at Patel's on the corner than you do at a Pick 'n Pay, you shouldn't expect that your ancillary costs will be the same when comparing one dealer to another.

 

[xrapidx]

Just as you don't pay the same for a Bar One at Patel's on the corner than you do at a Pick 'n Pay.

And at neither of these do they advertise a Barone at a price, and when you get to the till, add additional mandatory fees; yet each one has their own independent and different expenses, relating to keeping their stores clean, stocking, staff, transporting, refrigerating, etc, etc.

EDIT: Car dealerships are welcome to add their fee's, but then advertise the vehicle with that included. If you're selling a car for R80,000 and your fees are R6,000 - then advertise it for R86,000 - because that's what you want, you don't want R80,000 for the vehicle.

 

[HapticSimian]

And at neither of these do they advertise a Barone at a price, and when you get to the till, add additional mandatory fees; yet each one has their own independent and different expenses, relating to keeping their stores clean, stocking, staff, transporting, refrigerating, etc, etc.

Can you not see that the analogy doesn't translate without complication?

In addition to what you've said, neither does either grocery store function - in isolation - as a representative solely for the Bar One brand. Nor does Pick 'n Pay help Patel's in managing the distribution costs. Nor does Bar One advertise, under its own branding, a single price per product on national level. Yet car manufacturers do. The only feasible way to manage transactions is to separate the cost of the car from the cost of putting it on the road.

 

[ToxicBunny]

Can you not see that the analogy doesn't translate without complication?

In addition to what you've said, neither does either grocery store function - in isolation - as a representative solely for the Bar One brand. Nor does Pick 'n Pay help Patel's in managing the distribution costs. Nor does Bar One advertise, under its own branding, a single price per product on national level. Yet car manufacturers do. The only feasible way to manage transactions is to separate the cost of the car from the cost of putting it on the road.

Actually no, its not the only feasible way.

If a manufacturer is advertising a car at x price, then that is the price I will pay, not a cent more. Your overheads to do business, are just that, overheads and why the hell must I pay extra so you can cover your overheads. You have a margin on a vehicle... you must cover your expenses from that margin.

On a secondhand vehicle its even easier, advertise car at x price including the admin fees and when a person asks about the vehicle, then you break it down for them... and dealerships with ridiculous fees will go out of business because people will stop dealing with them.

 

[HapticSimian]

Actually no, its not the only feasible way.

If a manufacturer is advertising a car at x price, then that is the price I will pay, not a cent more. Your overheads to do business, are just that, overheads and why the hell must I pay extra so you can cover your overheads. You have a margin on a vehicle... you must cover your expenses from that margin.

On a secondhand vehicle its even easier, advertise car at x price including the admin fees and when a person asks about the vehicle, then you break it down for them...

On a new car that's simply not equitable - you don't buy a car from a manufacturer, you buy a car from a dealer. The cost to a dealer, on a given vehicle, is the same regardless of that dealer being part of a larger holding company or not, or its physical location. However, from that point until you drive off in your new car, further costs are variable. You will never see equality in final bottom line figures; how you choose to deal with that fact it entirely your prerogative.

... and dealerships with ridiculous fees will go out of business because people will stop dealing with them.

I've agreed with this sentiment numerous times; ridiculous fees aren't defensible. Reasonable fees for necessary and/or desired work and services are. Transparency is the issue, not the principle of paying for services rendered.

 

[ToxicBunny]

On a new car that's simply not equitable - you don't buy a car from a manufacturer, you buy a car from a dealer. The cost to a dealer, on a given vehicle, is the same regardless of that dealer being part of a larger holding company or not, or its physical location. However, from that point until you drive off in your new car, further costs are variable. You will never see equality in final bottom line figures; how you choose to deal with that fact it entirely your prerogative.

Thing is, the dealers bottom line is not my or the customers problem. If the dealer can't do business and cover their expenses in the margin that is provided for by the manufacturer, then they shouldn't be in business.

Dealers need to face the facts that more and more consumers are not going to be happy paying these additional fees, and they will start losing business to a dealership that wises up and doesn't make the person pay them.

If a dealer can't absorb R3000 into their bottom line per vehicle and still remain profitable then they're doing something VERY wrong in my opinion.

 

[Fazda]

If a dealer can't absorb R3000 into their bottom line per vehicle and still remain profitable then they're doing something VERY wrong in my opinion.

Sorry, but this statement underlines the fact that you have absolutely no idea what it costs to run a business/dealership.

I have probably said this before, but I'm not going back to check. Our particular dealership which is nothing special or grand in the whole scheme of things, costs 1.5 million, simply to open the doors every month.

Where do we find the 1.5 bar, first of all, and then hope like hell that we are actually making slightly more than that? "Giving away" 3000 per car is obviously going to impact on the final profit of the business - HOWEVER - selling cars is not where the money is made in the end, but in spares and workshop work - the ONLY two departments that do make a profit every month.

If you really want to get back at the dealers, then start doing your own work on your car and import your spares if you need them - the OTRC is a drop in the ocean.

 

[HapticSimian]

Thing is, the dealers bottom line is not my or the customers problem. If the dealer can't do business and cover their expenses in the margin that is provided for by the manufacturer, then they shouldn't be in business.

Dealers need to face the facts that more and more consumers are not going to be happy paying these additional fees, and they will start losing business to a dealership that wises up and doesn't make the person pay them.

If a dealer can't absorb R3000 into their bottom line per vehicle and still remain profitable then they're doing something VERY wrong in my opinion.

Unfortunately, and I say this with the utmost respect, your opinion just isn't terribly well informed in this instance.

The motor trade is a bit of an oddity, in the sense that it deals in very expensive consumer goods with proportionally expensive ancillary costs, coupled with oddly low profit margins. That R3k that you just want the dealer to absorb? Let's take an average month at a VW dealer, as that's what I'm most familiar with: that R3k will equate to anything between 15% and 60% of the profit margin on an average transaction. Sure, the odd Touareg will pay for a few registrations, but show me any business where one would even consider writing off half the possible profit on a given transaction because, hey, some bloke doesn't want to pay extra... and, for added fun, he has this odd idea that he is entitled to discount because he thinks paying cash makes him ****ing special.

The spurious analogies to chocolates and fridges above neglect another element of the equation: retail stores are supplied with stock in an immediately saleable condition. Do you think Makro might adjust their pricing a bit if they had to hire people to complete final assembly of their fridges once delivered? Cars are supplied to dealers, necessarily, in a condition far from roadworthy, because they are prone to spending months in stockyards before needing to be transported hundreds or thousands of kilometres to showroom floors. No non-critical fluids, no fuel, sticky-as-**** protective sheets on horizontal panels to combat industrial fallout, weeks or months of caked-on dirt, unadjusted control systems, various small bits of trim in little plastic bags in the boot... and, of course, unregistered.

People need to fix all these elements before you drive off, and you will pay their salaries one way or another. As has also been said earlier, your (in a general sense) smugness at not paying a R3k fee is severely misplaced - you just got a R3k smaller discount than you would have otherwise.

 

[Fazda]

Thank you for once again putting it so eloquently!