Online piracy

No, if I believe something is too expensive, I don't buy it.

And are you saying that the little people can have no morals just because they feel ripped off? Bit of a vicious circle.

This is probably the best point made so far.

Honestly if you think something is too expensive then don't buy it. Nobody is forcing you to purchase these albums. Just because you are of the opinion that they are expensive does not give you the right to make a copy of it without paying for it.

If you are desperate for the music then pay the price, otherwise do without.

EDIT: The fact that these record labels make the sort of profits that they do shows that their products are not too expensive in the eyes of the general public. If they were too expensive people would not purchase and this would be reflected in their annual turnover.
 
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Wow it amazes me how many guys blindly use the law argument, you remember not too long ago there was a law that stated blacks had to be separated from whites and being gay was illegal right?
 
OMG smack me in the face with a dead bable fish!

Piracy is a crime? :whistle:
 
Get your logic right before trying to discuss this matter :D.

Let's try this one: do you routinely sneak into a Ster Kinekor movie theatre to watch the latest movie without paying? I mean, they're ripping you off with their high prices!! And the movie's going to be playing anyway, whether you're there to watch it or not, so who cares if you sit on the steps? That's not stealing, right? Right?? Riiiiiight.

And yes, it's a moral issue. And pirates are all too happy to surrender the moral higher ground just so that they can indulge their over-developed sense of entitlement.

Juice
 
why do they have to be so harsh and call it piracy, no one gets hurt, no one loses anything, the artist hasnt lost any opportunities cause the 'pirates' dont have the money in the first place, for inflated overpriced hard copy, useless CD's. So wheres the trade that was lost? Why dont they(record/movie companies and artists) catch on and also offer their music at the same price per track as those 'illegal' download sites.

That would compete with the pirates and definitely ppl would prefer buying legit, instead of pirate?
Piracy is way to strong a word anyways, why dont we call it 'making someone/people famous via multiple digital redistribution'. And forgive me but I dont see any of the pop stars, actors or production companies starving to death. If anything it fuels their fame and popularity. And how is a movies success measured, not always financial, true power is obtained by people (thats us) making other people (the stars and wannabe be stars) famous.
 
Let's try this one: do you routinely sneak into a Ster Kinekor movie theatre to watch the latest movie without paying? I mean, they're ripping you off with their high prices!! And the movie's going to be playing anyway, whether you're there to watch it or not, so who cares if you sit on the steps? That's not stealing, right? Right?? Riiiiiight.

And yes, it's a moral issue. And pirates are all too happy to surrender the moral higher ground just so that they can indulge their over-developed sense of entitlement.

Juice

No i always pay for movies and i go to movies plenty. Spent nearly 200 bucks just watching avatar 3d.
 
why do they have to be so harsh and call it piracy, no one gets hurt, no one loses anything, the artist hasnt lost any opportunities cause the 'pirates' dont have the money in the first place, for inflated overpriced hard copy, useless CD's. So wheres the trade that was lost? Why dont they(record/movie companies and artists) catch on and also offer their music at the same price per track as those 'illegal' download sites.

That would compete with the pirates and definitely ppl would prefer buying legit, instead of pirate?
Piracy is way to strong a word anyways, why dont we call it 'making someone/people famous via multiple digital redistribution'. And forgive me but I dont see any of the pop stars, actors or production companies starving to death. If anything it fuels their fame and popularity. And how is a movies success measured, not always financial, true power is obtained by people (thats us) making other people (the stars and wannabe be stars) famous.

Tired argument. Why do you HAVE to have it? If it's too expensive, don't buy it. It's like saying that you MUST have a Ferarri to get where you're going, but because it's too expensive, you'll steal it, instead of just taking the bus. Or maybe you're that guy who sneaks onto the bus without paying? The bus was going your way anyway, so no-one loses anything, right? Screw all the paying customers who actually keep the bus service afloat with their contributions, you'll get it for free. Because you can. And you'll tell anyone who asks that tickets are too expensive to buy and you can't afford it but you MUST take the bus. Why don't you rather walk?

Psh. Pirates irritate me when they try to justify what they are doing. Don't try to make it sound better than it is. The guy in the article got one thing almost right: he made it clear that he knew what he was doing was morally questionable and he also made it clear that he just couldn't give a flying **** through a rolling doughnut. And yes, it's a moral issue and a pointless debate. I think it's morally wrong, you think it's morally defensible. I think rape is wrong, but there's always that one guy in prison who maintains that 'she was asking for it'. Don't be that guy.

Yes, I know I'm not going to convince you otherwise. You're right, I'm wrong; I just don't understand or get it. It actually doesn't matter. I just like posting clever analogies for my own gratification and the entertainment of others.

Juice
 
No i always pay for movies and i go to movies plenty. Spent nearly 200 bucks just watching avatar 3d.

That seems a bit contradictory. Or do you (hypothetically, since I don't really know if you do or not) only pirate when you feel like it? Is there some kind of tipping point on the scale between quality and price that will determine if you will or will not pirate something?

Juice
 
Tired argument. Why do you HAVE to have it? If it's too expensive, don't buy it. It's like saying that you MUST have a Ferarri to get where you're going, but because it's too expensive, you'll steal it, instead of just taking the bus. Or maybe you're that guy who sneaks onto the bus without paying? The bus was going your way anyway, so no-one loses anything, right? Screw all the paying customers who actually keep the bus service afloat with their contributions, you'll get it for free. Because you can. And you'll tell anyone who asks that tickets are too expensive to buy and you can't afford it but you MUST take the bus. Why don't you rather walk?

The bus analogy was a pretty good one in fact probably one of the best analogies I have ever read. +1

However for the love of God would you stop comparing copyright infringement to theft. There is neither a legal nor a logical basis for this comparison. Piracy is not theft and for those of you who think it is please note that when the record labels (you know, the ones against whom the offence was committed) go to court and accuse the defendant of COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT... not theft. If they could get away with accusing the defendant of theft then trust me they would because the theft charge not only allows them to seek restitution in the form of money in a similar (a civil case) manner not unlike copyright infringement cases, but would also give the opportunity of a prison sentence. That and the state would carry the legal charges (because the state prosecutes in the case of a criminal matter like theft and not the injured party) so the pirate would receive a prison sentence without the record label even needing to pay a cent in legal fees.

Copyright infringement is nothing like stealing a car. If you take just a moment to think about it you will realise that. It is really starting to irritate me. There is a legal definition for theft, if you can't comprehend that don't use the word or the concept.
 
Wow it amazes me how many guys blindly use the law argument, you remember not too long ago there was a law that stated blacks had to be separated from whites and being gay was illegal right?

There is a legal definition for theft, if you can't comprehend that don't use the word or the concept.
Yip, legal definitions rock.

Taking something that somebody else made without paying for it is theft. Live with it.
 
The bus analogy was a pretty good one in fact probably one of the best analogies I have ever read. +1

Thanks :) I aim to please and entertain.

However for the love of God would you stop comparing copyright infringement to theft. There is neither a legal nor a logical basis for this comparison. Piracy is not theft...

OK, fair enough. Let's go back to the bus analogy for a second. What would you call that behaviour? I agree that it's not 'theft' of the seat on the bus, as such, but it IS a crime. Some kind of crime. Does anyone know what it's called? Fare evasion? Would that be an accurate description of what piracy actually is? Fee evasion?

Juice
 
It is not a crime nor is it the same as your bus analogy. It is like seeing someone's ferrari and cloning it. Nobody has lost anything.

Even if piracy is theft so what i can live with myself, These big corporations can live with themselves for ripping people off i can do the same.

Without piracy do you think things would be cheaper or more expensive?
 
Thanks :) I aim to please and entertain.



OK, fair enough. Let's go back to the bus analogy for a second. What would you call that behaviour? I agree that it's not 'theft' of the seat on the bus, as such, but it IS a crime. Some kind of crime. Does anyone know what it's called? Fare evasion? Would that be an accurate description of what piracy actually is? Fee evasion?

Juice

People tend to think of anything that is in contravention of the law as a "crime". A crime is a criminal offence, not all contraventions of the law are a crime. For example murder is a criminal offence, as is theft. Those less serious offences that are not criminal offences are actually just called offences and are not punishable by a jail term. They normally involve civil action from the injured party and don't involve you being prosecuted by the state.

I actually don't know what the bus problem would constitute but that is an interesting point you have raised there. It isn't theft IMO. AFAIK in the case of theft there generally needs to be a desire to permanently deprive the other party of whatever was stolen. I also highly doubt it is actually a criminal offence and hence it isn't a crime. You could still face civil action from the bus company though as they could perhaps argue that the bus consumed more fuel carrying your weight around putting further ware on the machine and that you didn't pay for their service and considering the bus is not public property they have the right to charge what they want for use of their service... I doubt that would actually stand up in court and it probably isn't worth the legal fees it would burn up getting the small amount of damages out of you, but it is probably good enough for a case.

Wow now I am going to obsess over this bus thing, but it would be nice to have an answer... perhaps someone more versed in the law than I am could shed some light on this?
 
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I agree 100%... except with copyright infringement you are not taking something you are copying it.

If you have trouble comprehending these concepts and the differences between them here are the definitions of the words "take" and "copy"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/copy

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/take

porchrat, you are wasting your time. Many of us have explained these legal concepts over and over to Crowley, but he insists on trolling this forum over this issue. Either he is too thick to grasp this concept or he is working for the MAFIAA in some obscene capacity. We've been through all of this with him before many times. He is just yanking your chain.
 
I agree 100%... except with copyright infringement you are not taking something you are copying it.

If you have trouble comprehending these concepts and the differences between them here are the definitions of the words "take" and "copy"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/copy

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/take

Interesting debate. If I take someone's Rolex, that's an obvious one. But if I meticulously and faithfully make a copy of someone's Rolex, the person who currently owns the Rolex doesn't suffer. However, I now have a Rolex (for all intents and purposes) that I did not pay for. So I got something of value for nothing. Personally, that just doesn't seem fair, either to the Rolex company, or the guy who bought his Rolex. Eventually, Rolex will just stop making watches, because there's no way on earth they will ever be able to compete, pricewise, against the pirates.

Here's an interesting point of view. Piracy, and the advocates of piracy, are really interested in digital socialism. I think the article actually made a reference to that. But there's a fundamental issue with socialism as a structure. It removes the motivator for production. Like it or not, we live in a largely capitalist world driven by capitalist principles. Call it corporate greed, economics, whatever, it is what it is. No-one these days is going to produce content (music, games, movies) 'for the love of it'. They expect to be rewarded for their effort. At the moment, the industry appears to be able to afford piracy. The contributions of the many are subsidising the losses of the few. But if this piracy movement gains critical mass? When the composers, developers and directors can no longer afford to cover the costs of their production, how will they produce content? How on earth could James Cameron be able to afford to make Avatar at a cost of $500,000,000 if no-one was going to spend the money to watch it??

You're either part of the problem, or part of the solution. Consider the following urban legend:

An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never failed a single
student, but had once failed an entire class.

The class (students) insisted that socialism worked since no one would be
poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said,
"OK, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism."

"All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so
no one will fail and no one will receive an A."

After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The
students who had studied hard were upset while the students who had
studied very little were happy.

But, as the second test rolled around, the students who had studied little
studied even less and the ones who had studied hard decided that since
they couldn't make an A, they also studied less. The second Test average
was a D.

No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around the average grade was an
F.

The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling, all resulted
in hard feelings and no one would study for anyone else.

To their great surprise all failed. The professor told them that socialism
would ultimately fail because the harder people try to succeed the greater
their reward (capitalism) but when a government takes all the reward
away (socialism) no one will try or succeed.

Socialism has failed numerous times as a system of government. China manages it work out of desperation largely by bullying and subjugating their population. What makes you think that digital socialism will fare any better?

Juice
 
porchrat, you are wasting your time. Many of us have explained these legal concepts over and over to Crowley, but he insists on trolling this forum over this issue. Either he is too thick to grasp this concept or he is working for the MAFIAA in some obscene capacity. We've been through all of this with him before many times. He is just yanking your chain.

I seem to recall having this discussion with him before. I would really like to see his response to it though it will be rather entertaining.

I get the impression that Crowley thinks I am using the "Piracy is not theft" thing as a defense for piracy. I am not, I don't think any of us are. There is no denying that piracy is against the law. There are specific laws targeted at just that sort of action for the very reason that legally speaking piracy doesn't fall properly into the definition of theft. I just don't like people making something out to be something it is not.

The Pirate Bay and others dance around the issue saying that they aren't hosting the material etc. and hence are not responsible, at no point do they every make the argument that piracy is not illegal. At the end of the day the individuals that make copies of someone else's intellectual property without permission are breaking the law. They are infringing on someone's copyright or patent.
 
"Eventually, Rolex will just stop making watches, because there's no way on earth they will ever be able to compete, pricewise, against the pirates."

Again logic fail of note, rolex would drop pricing to compete.
 
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