Online piracy

[Juice]

BTW, you don't have to sign every post. We can tell it is your post by looking at the title bar of the post. Just thought I'd save you some hassle.

Well, if that's the worst thing about my post, I'll take that as a victory

Juice

P.S. I just noticed that I don't even think about it anymore. Poof. Juice. There it is. A hangover from the days when bulletin boards weren't quite so pretty.

 

[LazyLion]

Well, if that's the worst thing about my post, I'll take that as a victory

P.S. I just noticed that I don't even think about it anymore. Poof. Juice. There it is. A hangover from the days when bulletin boards weren't quite so pretty.

nah, it's just that people who try to do fancy stuff to their posts to make them "unique" in some pitiable way inevitably get bored of it and eventually quit doing it... which makes them look kinda silly in retrospect for starting something that they are not gonna stick with!

and that wasn't all that was wrong with your post... you just ignored the rest.

 

[sin_x]

Thanks super genius... if you could please point out for me where I said that piracy is OK I would be most appreciative. If I have said that then I apologise and I did not mean to, I won't however apologise if you have failed to comprehend basic English and have as a result inferred additional meaning where there is none.

Talk about failed logic. Perhaps you didn't read this post of mine:



Next time before you open your mouth please bother to read all of the posts.

I greatly anticipate the retraction of your above-quoted statement.

I quoted killadoob, and not you.
I retract nothing.
I eagerly await your apology...

 

[porchrat]

Well, if that's the worst thing about my post, I'll take that as a victory

Juice

P.S. I just noticed that I don't even think about it anymore. Poof. Juice. There it is. A hangover from the days when bulletin boards weren't quite so pretty.

I don't know I kind of like it. At first I thought Juice signing the posts was a little weird, but now I think it gives his/her (I don't know Juice's gender and I am not going to be sexist by assuming Juice is male) posts a more personal touch, perhaps it is just psychological but whatever.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programmes!

 

[porchrat]

I quoted killadoob, and not you.
I retract nothing.
I eagerly await your apology...

AHAHA nice!

I of course readily supply my apology and retract my bitingly sarcastic and borderline ranty (why is the word ranty underlined in red?... is there a word like that?) post.

I prostrate myself at the feet of sin x and beg his/her forgiveness. My bad dude/dudette. (also underlined...man that is sexist dictionary)

I am so used to people being thick-headed about the whole "piracy is not theft" thing that I respond by reflex.

 

[sin_x]

AHAHA nice!

I of course readily supply my apology and retract my bitingly sarcastic and borderline ranty (why is the word ranty underlined in red?... is there a word like that?) post.

I prostrate myself at the feet of sin x and beg his/her forgiveness. My bad dude/dudette. (also underlined...man that is sexist dictionary)

I am so used to people being thick-headed about the whole "piracy is not theft" thing that I respond by reflex.

lol, apology accepted.

I do however expect that killadoob will copy and paste your initial post in response, if only to attain your superior level of sarcasm. (Or would that constitute copyright infringement? Sarcastic intellectual property perhaps?)

 

[porchrat]

On a note related to the bus fare thing (yes I didn't let it drop... gotta love how slow January is) I found this article:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...r-a-90p-oyster-card-bus-fare-to-cost-10000.do

Of course it happened in the UK which isn't exactly the same as our legal system, but still it seems it does indeed constitute "fare evasion" which is AFAIK a civil matter between the rider of the bus and the bus company. Well done Juice.

Very seldom does this sort of thing seem to happen though. Normally they dodge the courts and institute a "penalty fare" instead where the individual who dodged the ticket price now has to pay much higher fees in order to partake in the transport company's services.

Sorry, just thought you might find it as interesting as I did I didn't even know "fare evasion" existed.

 

[porchrat]

lol, apology accepted.

I do however expect that killadoob will copy and paste your initial post in response, if only to attain your superior level of sarcasm. (Or would that constitute copyright infringement? Sarcastic intellectual property perhaps?)

If he copies my post and doesn't give me credit for it in the form of a formal quote I am going to sue for millions. Or at the very least his sweet desktop computer. I am still running a 5 year old laptop on which the speakers no longer work and it's USB ports are cursed so that every mouse or other peripheral I ever insert perishes in a wail of electronic agony.

EDIT: oh, and the fan makes a noise like a constipated banshee.

Stupid computer.

 

[sin_x]

If he copies my post and doesn't give me credit for it in the form of a formal quote I am going to sue for millions. Or at the very least his sweet desktop computer. I am still running a 5 year old laptop on which the speakers no longer work and it's USB ports are cursed so that every mouse or other peripheral I ever insert perishes in a wail of electronic agony.

Ah, so in other words, you flamed me using the GPL?

 

[porchrat]

Ah, so in other words, you flamed me using the GPL?

LOL awesome. I nearly spat coffee all over the screen. On a related note you owe me a new Transformers T-shirt. (just a joke... everyone knows I only wear Spiderman T-shirts)

You know your licenses.

I never actually read the terms of use for this forum but that is a good point. I wonder if my posts are my property or not. Do I give the right to use my words to MyBroadBand (a.k.a rpm?) when I become a member?

Not that I think what I have to say is particularly important or quote-worthy in any way other than to use as a description of how not to interact with people on forums, I am just interested. Anyone actually bother to read the terms of use? Are there even any I can't remember.

 

[sin_x]

LOL awesome. I nearly spat coffee all over the screen. On a related note you owe me a new Transformers T-shirt. (just a joke... everyone knows I only wear Spiderman T-shirts)

You know your licenses.

I never actually read the terms of use for this forum but that is a good point. I wonder if my posts are my property or not. Do I give the right to use my words to MyBroadBand (a.k.a rpm?) when I become a member?

Not that I think what I have to say is particularly important or quote-worthy in any way other than to use as a description of how not to interact with people on forums, I am just interested. Anyone actually bother to read the terms of use? Are there even any I can't remember.

meh, who cares about terms of use. It's clearly not a crime to defy the terms of use, therefore I will do it. My next post will be filled with expletives. (flame suit: on)

Spiderman? Dude, quit perpetuating the geek stereotype. Just cos it's true, doesn't make it cool.

Oh, and perhaps the spilt coffee might have helped lube up that wailing fan...

 

[Crowley]

porchrat, you are wasting your time. Many of us have explained these legal concepts over and over to Crowley, but he insists on trolling this forum over this issue. Either he is too thick to grasp this concept or he is working for the MAFIAA in some obscene capacity. We've been through all of this with him before many times. He is just yanking your chain.

I wake up every morning and hope for another thread about how "copyright infringement" as you so eloquently call it is perfectly acceptable, it just makes my week. As was discussed a few threads ago it is illegal to download copyrighted material and just because the law isn't enforced as it should be you get away with it. Unfortunately.

I don't like it when huge corporations and greedy middlemen inflate prices and rip off the public. I don't like it when traffic policemen take bribes. I don't like it when judges get drunk and crash into walls... but hey it happens.

Once again you see yourself as the common man's crusader of virtue. Stealing from the rich for your own pleasure. I don't like the high prices either but just like you, I am in no position to tell the record companies what they should charge for a CD.

I seem to recall having this discussion with him before. I would really like to see his response to it though it will be rather entertaining.

I get the impression that Crowley thinks I am using the "Piracy is not theft" thing as a defence for piracy. I am not, I don't think any of us are. There is no denying that piracy is against the law. There are specific laws targeted at just that sort of action for the very reason that legally speaking piracy doesn't fall properly into the definition of theft. I just don't like people making something out to be something it is not.

The Pirate Bay and others dance around the issue saying that they aren't hosting the material etc. and hence are not responsible, at no point do they every make the argument that piracy is not illegal. At the end of the day the individuals that make copies of someone else's intellectual property without permission are breaking the law. They are infringing on someone's copyright or patent.

So glad that you enjoy my posts, make me all warm and fuzzy inside

Maybe the problem is the morality of piracy. I don't feel right taking something that I did not pay for. I once heard something that has stuck with me for a few years now. Very few murderers started off with murder. It is a gradual thing that started with petty theft and escalated from there. To me downloading music etc. is petty theft and as soon as you can justify your actions to yourself, the next step towards more serious crimes will be easier.

 

[LazyLion]

I wake up every morning and hope for another thread about how "copyright infringement" as you so eloquently call it is perfectly acceptable, it just makes my week. As was discussed a few threads ago it is illegal to download copyrighted material and just because the law isn't enforced as it should be you get away with it. Unfortunately.

Where did any of us say it is acceptable. You are making up lies about us and should learn to read. We never said that it was acceptable, only that it is not Theft. Please go and get a better brain, because the one you have is severely defective.

And as has been pointed out to you many many times before the legality of it has yet to be tested in a court of law. So until then you can carry on smoking your hallucinogenic weed.

Once again you see yourself as the common man's crusader of virtue. Stealing from the rich for your own pleasure. I don't like the high prices either but just like you, I am in no position to tell the record companies what they should charge for a CD.

I don't care about what anyone else does, only what I do. I am nobody's crusader... well except maybe against stupidity... of which you have a lion's share. I have never stolen from anybody. But somebody done ripped off your intelligence when you weren't looking. I'd file a charge if I was you. Maybe they can find 3 of your brain cells and you can graduate back up to complete and utter blithering buffoon.

Maybe the problem is the morality of piracy. I don't feel right taking something that I did not pay for. I once heard something that has stuck with me for a few years now. Very few murderers started off with murder. It is a gradual thing that started with petty theft and escalated from there. To me downloading music etc. is petty theft and as soon as you can justify your actions to yourself, the next step towards more serious crimes will be easier.

Maybe the problem is that you lack any sense of rational thought and calculative intelligence? Did you ever consider that? Or are the brain cells devoted to self-check also damaged?

Here is one more attempt at explaining the difference to you... not that I hold out much hope if you grasping the simple logic of this.

Theft: The act of stealing physical property and removing it from the possession of the legal owner.
Copyright Infringement: Infringement involves engaging in one of the practices that are exclusively reserved for a copyright owner, without a license to do so.

Yes, they are both naughty and bad things to do. Very spankworthy, we agree. But two completely different legal definitions for two completely different judicial acts. completely unrelated in the world of jurisprudence.

Kapisch? I didn't think so

 

[JoSorc]

Hi GaryVDH,

OOI what exactly is your argument for validating or condoning piracy?

 

[porchrat]

It is a gradual thing that started with petty theft and escalated from there. To me downloading music etc. is petty theft and as soon as you can justify your actions to yourself, the next step towards more serious crimes will be easier.

Luckily for South Africa, just because you are of the opinion that downloading music illegally is petty theft, that doesn't actually change the legal definition of theft. That definition (you know, the one drafted by lawyers with far more legal book-learnin' than I) is the one I will go with as opposed to the opinions of a random forumite name Crowley.

A pretty good definition of theft (IMO one of the best) is by Snyman and reads as follows:

A person commits theft if he unlawfully and intentionally
appropriates movable, corporeal property which
(a) belongs to, and is in the possession of, another
(b) belongs to another but is in the perpetrator’s own possession; or
(c) belongs to the perpetrator but is in another’s possession and such
other person has a right to possess it which legally prevails
against the perpetrator’s own right of possession
provided that the intention to appropriate the property includes an
intention permanently to deprive the person entitled to the possession
of the property, of such property

The problem with that definition is it doesn't include money, which of course would also constitute theft, but it does include the section about the intention to permanently deprive the owner of his/her possession. If you can figure out where illegally downloading music fits into that definition you deserve a gold star.

 

[LazyLion]

Hi GaryVDH,

OOI what exactly is your argument for validating or condoning piracy?

This has nothing to do with validating or condoning piracy... whatever that is.

We are simply drawing a distinction between the legal definitions of "Theft" and "Copyright Infringement"... as we have done countless times before on this board and on many others all over the world.

The MAFIAA are trying to redefine copyright violation as theft when they have no legal basis to do so.

regardless of how wrong it is or what the penalties are, the courts will never view copyright infringement as theft because they are two different legal concepts.

They might one day make the penalties similar or even the same... but that still does not make copyright infringement the same as theft.

You might view them with similar dislike, but that still does not make them the same.

How would you view it if the Traffic Department suddenly started calling "speeding" as "assault with a deadly weapon"?

You would laugh and tell them they had their legal concepts mixed up. That is what is happening here.

The MAFIAA are trying to redefine legal terms to make downloaders look worse than they are and to brainwash the public into viewing them as criminals. And a whole lot of weak-minded individuals have bought into that crap... as you can see above.

 

[Juice]

This has nothing to do with validating or condoning piracy... whatever that is.

That's not entirely accurate. The article that spawned this thread was very much trumpetting the glories of piracy and people who leapt to piracy's defence attempt to suggest there's nothing wrong with piracy because piracy is not theft. I'm quite satisfied that we covered that angle and I am very happy to concede that piracy is not theft. You have me convinced.

However, this has distracted us from the real question and that is whether or not piracy should be as proudly supported as by the writer of the article, whether it is theft or not. Piracy remains morally, even if not legally, reprehensible, whatever your motivations.

Juice

 

[Crowley]

Where did any of us say it is acceptable.

You are known by your actions and defending piracy in every thread about it pretty much paints you as condoning piracy.

And as has been pointed out to you many many times before the legality of it has yet to be tested in a court of law.

it has been tested
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15046455

I don't care about what anyone else does, only what I do. I am nobody's crusader... well except maybe against stupidity... of which you have a lion's share. I have never stolen from anybody. But somebody done ripped off your intelligence when you weren't looking. I'd file a charge if I was you. Maybe they can find 3 of your brain cells and you can graduate back up to complete and utter blithering buffoon.

Sticks and stones my boy, sticks and stones

Theft: The act of stealing physical property and removing it from the possession of the legal owner.
Copyright Infringement: Infringement involves engaging in one of the practices that are exclusively reserved for a copyright owner, without a license to do so.

So if somebody hacks into your bank account and transfers whatever money you have into their account it is not theft? You don't have the physical money so it should be just dandy? (read the same article as porchrat there)

Since you seem incapable of having a rational argument without reverting to namecalling this will be the last reply to any of your posts. Maybe have a look here before responding to anybody in the future http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

If you can figure out where illegally downloading music fits into that definition you deserve a gold star.

It probably fits in right next to electronic fraud and if the lawyers can't find a definition for it I'm pretty sure I won't do such a great job of it.

Luckily for South Africa, just because you are of the opinion that downloading music illegally is petty theft, that doesn't actually change the legal definition of theft. That definition (you know, the one drafted by lawyers with far more legal book-learnin' than I) is the one I will go with as opposed to the opinions of a random forumite name Crowley.

Maybe the problem is the morality of piracy. I don't feel right taking something that I did not pay for.

We were on the legal definition thing a few posts back. Just because the law doesn't explicitely say that it is theft doesn't mean that it isn't. This may differ from person to person but do you honestly think that downloading music is legal?

 

[chubster]

So if somebody hacks into your bank account and transfers whatever money you have into their account it is not theft? You don't have the physical money so it should be just dandy? (read the same article as porchrat there)

That wouldn't be seen as cloning, copying of money, rather movement of an item (in this case money)... I think you should use another example.

 

[Juice]

...do you honestly think that downloading music is legal?

That's not the real question. Legality can be debated, as has been shown here ad nauseum. The question really is: is it RIGHT? And that's really up to you. Legality is all about what you can prove. Whether something is morally right is up to the individual. Like I said before, there's always that one guy in prison for rape who maintains that 'she was asking for it'. In his mind, he did nothing wrong, but in accordance with the law, he's guilty of a crime.

I can tell you why I think piracy is wrong, and the guy who wrote the article gleefully told us why he doesn't care. As far as I'm concerned any activity that seeks to disenfranchise any individual in any way is morally reprehensible, whether it is deemed illegal or not.

Juice