Paladin talents/spellsand changes as requested by blizz

Also people underestimate the amount of aggro a paladin gets from holy shield. If you not getting hit you dont get any damage or aggro from holy shield.
This very important ability also goes to waste.
A pala is like a porcupine. We need to get hit to generate aggro and mana and damage.
 
Dusk said:
Exactly :) Someone sees the light ,Yayness!!! :P
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Have seen it all a long, just have not experienced the problem yet in our raids, maybe because our paladin is the main tank in these fights :D

But I would also group the paladin with a shadow priest and use another paladin to keep JoW up for the entire fight.
 
Its not always to get the specific match you would want.
25 man raids and 10 man raids more of a chance, yes i agree but most of the time you will find that tanking paladins are getting less and less. As you are more likely to find group invites as healer as a substandard Offtank. To get gear to be MT is another story all together as warriors are normally ones to have 1st dabs on tank plate.
 
shaman totems work yes but also just to an exstent. If you MT stuff like holy shield retri aura etc and reckoning all become huge advantages. However not getting hit makes all those spells just useless. The overall problem with offtanking as paladin is that it makes too many aggro and damge dealing spells unusable.
 
You sound like a mate of mine. He insists he tanks in instances, which in most groups work perfectly cos I'm a fury warrior and dish out the damage.

So if you have a Fury warrior in your group be tank, if not manage your mana. You can't have it both ways.

I believe Pala's can be good tanks, as for OT Druids do it best.

So it's easy... either you tank or you do DPS you can't have the bread buttered both ways. If I read the posts above correctly it's this.

* You don't want to tank but want to do massive amount of threat and DPS.

In a group of 25 men. You will at least have 2 warriors, you will have rogues, you will have Druids. Why don't you let the correct people do the correct job ?

I still fail to see what your abillities have to do with instances. I can see what your saying... However that sounds more like PvP than instance based. And I fail to see Blizzard amending it because of PvP. If it was a problem in instances yes.

All they will do is refer you to your job in an instance, which would be one of the following:

1. Tank
or
2. DPS
or
3. Heal

That is what a Pala is made to do, not all of the above in 1 go.

Or am I completly lost now ?
 
Dusk said:
Also people underestimate the amount of aggro a paladin gets from holy shield. If you not getting hit you dont get any damage or aggro from holy shield.
This very important ability also goes to waste.
A pala is like a porcupine. We need to get hit to generate aggro and mana and damage.
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FWIW my prot pala's usual sequence of attack is avengers shield, judgment seal of crusader, Holy shield, seal of vengeance, Holy shield, judgment of seal of vengence
 
You are all wrong

If you are running out of mana you are doing something wrong. Firstly you are getting mana back from JoW, JoW is being refreshed automatically already since your hitting the mob. You Get mana back WHEN YOU HIT the mob end of story. The amount of mana back is actually nearly enough to maintain threat. If you are burning a lot of mana use Seal of Blood (Assuming you are horde). Since Seal of blood hurts you as well YOU WILL GET HEALED WHICH GIVES YOU MANA FROM SPIRITUAL ATTUNEMENT. If you are alliance SoV generate loads of agro for very little mana anyways.

*** Read the tooltips of the abilities carefully to better understand them. ***

Seal Of Wisdom said:
Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 20 sec, granting attacks and spells used against the judged enemy a chance to restore 74 mana to the attacker. Your melee strikes will refresh the spell's duration.
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As a side note, warriors do not get much threat from white damage either. They require rage to use abilities which generate additional threat. They need to get hit to generate rage to tank. Hence why you will see tanks taking off half their gear in non-heroic instances to get enough rage. Even in Heroics they may drop a few pieces of gear if needed.
 
You fail to see the point im making.
If you have warrior and pali in group , both tank specced. Who is gonna be MT?
Warrior ofcourse (cause their armour is better). Pali then is expected to OT. Then the problem arises.
Paladin cant dps to save a stray cat. Holy damage is not very high dps but is high aggro. Being OT you are expected to have yourself 2nd on mob`s hate list. No mana = no holy damage = no way you gonna get even close to 2nd on aggro list.

Any paladin knows , and everyone else i thought :P that paladin cant dps even when he is specced to do that. Speccing tank as pala makes you the lowest dps class in the game.

PVP is a joke all by itself. Being the only class that can do nothing against ranged fighters , paladins just gets kited to death.
 
noswal said:
FWIW my prot pala's usual sequence of attack is avengers shield, judgment seal of crusader, Holy shield, seal of vengeance, Holy shield, judgment of seal of vengence
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Note what I said...

I qoute myself.
-------------------
okay paladin tanking:
(lowered ammount of spells mentioned so we dont lose focus :P )
Paladin runs to mob casting seal of wisdom, as soon as he gets into range he judges his seal of wisdom. Now there is a chance on hit received from mob to give paladin mana.
 
Dusk said:
PVP is a joke all by itself. Being the only class that can do nothing against ranged fighters , paladins just gets kited to death.
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Sure they do

Horde = Insignia of the Horde
Allies = ?? but there is something

But the fact is like I said above.. If a group expect a pala to be off tank they are just noobish. Unless there is no Druid. However in a 25man.. I doubt there will be a instance with no druid ;)
 
Dusk said:
Warrior ofcourse (cause their armour is better). Pali then is expected to OT. Then the problem arises.
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Wrong, There is no difference in armour between the two. The only 2 things that cause paladins to not always be MT is the fact that warriors have 1.2k more base HP and that paladins require much more block rating to be crush immune.

Both of which are scheduled for fixes in upcoming patches.

It is already confirmed that crushing blows will become a joke. Druids have qqed enough to the point where blizzard will be nerfing crushing blows so much you will barely notice them.

Blizzard has commited to a deep prot talent for increased HP. Probably only going to see this with WoTLK though.
 
alchamy said:
If you are running out of mana you are doing something wrong. Firstly you are getting mana back from JoW, JoW is being refreshed automatically already since your hitting the mob. You Get mana back WHEN YOU HIT the mob end of story. The amount of mana back is actually nearly enough to maintain threat. If you are burning a lot of mana use Seal of Blood (Assuming you are horde). Since Seal of blood hurts you as well YOU WILL GET HEALED WHICH GIVES YOU MANA FROM SPIRITUAL ATTUNEMENT. If you are alliance SoV generate loads of agro for very little mana anyways.
[/qoute]

Okay as sadistic as it sounds , it might work.
Never thought of hurting myself just to get a heal so i can some mana out of it :P
Any way that i can get my reckoning proc activated as OT?

However i am sure that the judgement of wisdom gives you mana when mob hits you, and the seal gives mana when you hit the mob.
I used to be a paldin tank fo a long time and unless it has changed , i have seen this from my own eyes.
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Dusk said:
And the cooldown?
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True but how many do you want to kill in 1 go ?
But there is others in case of emergency ;)

On my rogue i have

"Insignia of the horde"+ WOTF+Vanish

By the time i went trhu the cycle I die ofc. But by then I took aout about 5 - 10 Allies. now if you do the sums it's not that bad :D

And also once I am out again all is ready for use again :p

This is all in BG though... in the World it's easy ussualy only run into 1 or 2 at a time
 
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Dusk said:
However i am sure that the judgement of wisdom gives you mana when mob hits you, and the seal gives mana when you hit the mob.
I used to be a paldin tank fo a long time and unless it has changed , i have seen this from my own eyes.
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And I still think that is where you make a mistake. JoW and seal of wisdom both give mana for your hits, and not for the hits you take.
 
Well no debate in the world can change the way things are now , I just gave my opinion on my views to blizz as they asked for it.
Lets hope , some of the info and problems as i experience it get noticed.
Otherwise my Healing paladin will just turn into my finance character for my upcoming DK :P
 
werries2 said:
And I still think that is where you make a mistake. JoW and seal of wisdom both give mana for your hits, and not for the hits you take.
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Okay as soon as i go home i will cast JOW and no SOW and let the mob hit me and see.
I might be wrong but not as far as i can remember.
I will report later from home. :P
 
alchamy said:
Blessing of Freedom & Cleanse

Keep in mind that BoF can be purged by shaman
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Yeah sure you can cleanse and prevent being slowed for a while. Just remember we run exacty the same speed as them. So if they are far away they just run when we run while casting dots on us. Stop to heal and the just pump out the nukage and interupt spells while their dots just carry on ticking away.
 
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