Polygraph testing: How accurate is the technology?

Do you think it is possible to beat a polygraph test?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 84.6%
  • No

    Votes: 10 15.4%

  • Total voters
    65
“In more than 23 years of examinations I have not ever come across a guilty individual who was successful in manipulating test results and changing the outcome of an investigation,” said Pretorius.

I guess Pretorius hasnt done many polygraph tests then. These tests dont work with Habitual liars and their body physiology doesnt change when they lie. The Polygraph tests are the most invasive and degrading tests ever to be devised... I would rank them as a violation of the basic right to dignity.
 
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Would be nice to see if these expert examiners can beat the test. They should know all the tricks and what the examiner will look at. And then be able to "control" those emotions that show you are lying.

Let Coen Pretorius try the test and see if he can beat it.
 
I think the brain scan technique will be close to 100% accurate. This is assuming that they know how the brain works when it comes to true memories, making up lies etc. As for traditional polygraph tests – after discussing it with Coen I am fairly certain that it is not possible to beat the system…
 
And now for skype:
http://kishkish-lie-detector.en.softonic.com/

Interview your candidates with this number to see if they are kosher lol.
Voice stress testing is a very dubious practice. This is what Coen had to say about it:

“Why had the federal institutions in the USA stopped using voice pattern results and shelved their voice stress analysis instruments as far back as the mid nineties of the last century? Is it because it had been found equally reliable? No, sir. I spoke to the person who conducted the research the USA government did in this respect. He had found it to be only 38% reliable. No, it need not be explained that if you flipped a coin you would be at 50% if you chose that way of determining if a person should be expelled or fired or incarcerated or jailed. This would be 12 % better.”
 
I guess Pretorius hasnt done many polygraph tests then. These tests dont work with Habitual liars and their body physiology doesnt change when they lie. The Polygraph tests are the most invasive and degrading tests ever to be devised... I would rank them as a violation of the basic right to dignity.

If someone stole something at our company I'd prefer that everyone is tested so that the guilty party is rooted out - who cares about the dignity of a crook and if you're innocent there's nothing to worry about. It's worse to have everyone looking over their shoulder wondering who the guilty party is.

These people you are referring to that can beat a polygraph test are called psychopaths and as the name suggests there's a physiological problem with their brain so they don't react like normal people. They constitute around 3.6% of the US population, not sure about SA.

http://www.psychiatric-disorders.com/articles/personality-disorders/antisocial.php
 
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I dont trust those things- A laptop went missing at a friends work and they accused him- he did the polygraph and failed... he got fired.
about a month later they caught the guy who did it. Fortunately my friends name was then cleared and they offered to reinstate him.
Now here is the question- the article says that depending on the examiner, you can get results from 80-98% accurate. How do you know which type your examiner is????

Apparently it is possible to sabotage a polygraph by causing your own fluctuations in blood pressure etc- but they can also pick up when you are doing that.... the results come back as sabotaged.... (I saw that on judge mathis :D )
 
In more than 23 years of examinations I have not ever come across a guilty individual who was successful in manipulating test results and changing the outcome of an investigation,” said Pretorius.

Surely by definition, if somebody SUCCESSFULLY manipulated the test, then Pretorius wouldn't know. I mean if he knew about it, then it couldn't have been successful!?!
 
if i did polygraph test i probably fail it from nervousness

I think with the first few questions like Is your name xxxxx? and "Are you xx years old?", they establish your levels and monitor from there.

Maybe Coen can register on MyBB and answer some of our questions.
 
Polygraph tests have been proven internationally through extensive study to be no more effective than guessing whether an individual is truthful or not and can be beaten (reasonably) easy through physical techniques that trigger false positives and negatives. There's a good reason why police and other legal departments around the world (including here) do not make use of polygraphs and they are not considered evidence admissible in court, as their accuracy is spotty at best. This of course doesn't prevent 3rd parties from using polygraph tests (lets stop calling them lie detectors) against employees, and individuals to "weed out" potential dangers - which is bad news.

A polygraph test measures typical stress indicators such as elevated heart rate, breathing, increased skin conductivity (perspiration), etc. to determine whether someone is most likely lying or not. Unfortunately these are just STRESS indicators, not lie indicators (and painting them as such is just disingenuous) and the simple act of taking place in a polygraph test can trigger these responses despite telling the truth.

There are 2 things going on during a polygraph test that are the real "trick" to the system:

1) The false belief imprinted on a interviewee that the system they are partaking in is "lie detection" and that this magical machine will instantly know if they are telling the truth or not. This false belief can result in the interviewee ultimately giving away a lie without realising it.
2) The cold reading and observation being done by the interviewer is the real "lie detection" taking place. During the interview many experienced polygraph testers are using various observation skills to determine possible lies with the machine giving indication of whether there is any undue stress associated with a particular question.

Unfortunately, due to this, #2 amounts to a Q&A session, and without actual confession it's no more admissible than a police enquiry because the machine is NOT detecting lies, the interviewer is (and who knows how good that person is at actually spotting lies).

Polygraph testers such as Coen, while I'm sure having good intentions, have every reason to continue lying about the efficacy of polygraph testing and their accuracy in detection. Their whole premise revolves around keeping people believing that the "machine" is a magic lie detection box, because without that, other than some A+ observation skills, they're unlikely to come away with anything useful and they're all out of a job.

Now as for brain scan techniques, I would say those hold far more promise, though again it's going to be dependent on how they work. If they don't actually measure LIES, then they're going to be just as bad as polygraphs, perhaps even more-so because people are always quick to misrepresent anything about the brain as "fact" (violent video games cause the brain to light up under CT scans, so that means it's getting trained to kill. FACT!) when in "fact" it's still largely uncharted territory.

What this is doing on the front of MyBroadband is absolutely beyond me.
 
Surely by definition, if somebody SUCCESSFULLY manipulated the test, then Pretorius wouldn't know. I mean if he knew about it, then it couldn't have been successful!?!

I think, because you cannot convict on a polygraph, it only aids in refining the search.
So you probably find that when evidence is found, the polygraph results back up that evidence.
 
Polygraph tests have been proven internationally through extensive study to be no more effective than guessing whether an individual is truthful or not and can be beaten (reasonably) easy through physical techniques that trigger false positives and negatives. There's a good reason why police and other legal departments around the world (including here) do not make use of polygraphs and they are not considered evidence admissible in court, as their accuracy is spotty at best. This of course doesn't prevent 3rd parties from using polygraph tests (lets stop calling them lie detectors) against employees, and individuals to "weed out" potential dangers - which is bad news.

A polygraph test measures typical stress indicators such as elevated heart rate, breathing, increased skin conductivity (perspiration), etc. to determine whether someone is most likely lying or not. Unfortunately these are just STRESS indicators, not lie indicators (and painting them as such is just disingenuous) and the simple act of taking place in a polygraph test can trigger these responses despite telling the truth.

There are 2 things going on during a polygraph test that are the real "trick" to the system:

1) The false belief imprinted on a interviewee that the system they are partaking in is "lie detection" and that this magical machine will instantly know if they are telling the truth or not. This false belief can result in the interviewee ultimately giving away a lie without realising it.
2) The cold reading and observation being done by the interviewer is the real "lie detection" taking place. During the interview many experienced polygraph testers are using various observation skills to determine possible lies with the machine giving indication of whether there is any undue stress associated with a particular question.

Unfortunately, due to this, #2 amounts to a Q&A session, and without actual confession it's no more admissible than a police enquiry because the machine is NOT detecting lies, the interviewer is (and who knows how good that person is at actually spotting lies).

Polygraph testers such as Coen, while I'm sure having good intentions, have every reason to continue lying about the efficacy of polygraph testing and their accuracy in detection. Their whole premise revolves around keeping people believing that the "machine" is a magic lie detection box, because without that, other than some A+ observation skills, they're unlikely to come away with anything useful and they're all out of a job.

Now as for brain scan techniques, I would say those hold far more promise, though again it's going to be dependent on how they work. If they don't actually measure LIES, then they're going to be just as bad as polygraphs, perhaps even more-so because people are always quick to misrepresent anything about the brain as "fact" (violent video games cause the brain to light up under CT scans, so that means it's getting trained to kill. FACT!) when in "fact" it's still largely uncharted territory.

What this is doing on the front of MyBroadband is absolutely beyond me.

Although an interesting article and debate, I too find this largely non-broadband related...
 
Thanks for the good write up Thraxis.
In fact, there was a good episode of Penn and Teller's Bull**** (Season 7 or 8?) which addressed this exact topic. They interviewed a retired policeman whose job had been running polygraph tests for many years.
His 2 main points were - firstly, you basically use the machine as a tool to help you pressure the "guilty party" into admitting they're guilty - often even when they're not.
Also, you can cause false positives on the test by squeezing your sphincter. Quite literally - clenching your @ss causes a slight spike in blood pressure which causes the machine to register stress. So if you do this during the calibration phase, the test is screwed. There you go, no need for a calm demeanour or psychotic tendencies.

And to reiterate a point which the article just glossed over (which Thraxis mentioned) - if these tests are so accurate (23 years, no liars bla bla bla), why are they inadmissible as evidence in most countries?

Edit: I think it's cool to have interesting non-broadband / technology related articles like this for us to discuss, but maybe give them their own section? Really is irrelevant to the site
 
I dont know what this article has to do with broadband/internet in south africa?!?!
 
If someone stole something at our company I'd prefer that everyone is tested so that the guilty party is rooted out - who cares about the dignity of a crook and if you're innocent there's nothing to worry about. It's worse to have everyone looking over their shoulder wondering who the guilty party is.

These people you are referring to that can beat a polygraph test are called psychopaths and as the name suggests there's a physiological problem with their brain so they don't react like normal people. They constitute around 3.6% of the US population, not sure about SA.

http://www.psychiatric-disorders.com/articles/personality-disorders/antisocial.php

It is also based on Culture and the phrasing of questions. As in some cultures 'Theft' is not a thing to feel guilty about - so the questions have to be re-phrased to cater for that fact. ("Did you steal the the Toy" vs "Was the toy in your hands") Its pretty evident that you have not had a polygraph test - as part of my employment with the SA Gambling board I was subjected to a yearly one. They are not nice by no stretch of the imagination.
When people are stressed they react differently and many false positives occur. The article said that 100% of guilty are found, but he doesnt mention about how many people were falsely accused or put on 'Watch Lists' based on the results.
 
It is ABSOLUTELY possible to beat a Polygraph test if you are properly prepared. In the USA they have been largely outlawed and in South Africa the South African Medical Councel says that you may as well flip a coin as trust a polygraph. That is why South African courts will not accept Polygraph tests.

Please read the documents at AntiPolygraph.org., an American organisation that has shown how badly the Polygraph has failed in finding numerous spies and double agents in the CIA. There is also a lot about it and it's failures in the Library of Congress of the USA - especially the debates before Congress banned the use of the Polygraph, except in exeptional circumstances. The inventor of the modern Polygraph testified in front of Congress that he wished that he had not invented the device because it was being misused to such a degree that he was ashamed to be associated with it.

The reason it is sometimes successful relies on scaring the subject sh*tless and this is not allowed in most civilised societies. Nobody can force you to sign the agreement form that users MUST obtain from a victim. Stand your ground - you cannot be forced to undergo this test.:D:D:D
 
I dont know what this article has to do with broadband/internet in south africa?!?!

Online gambling companies in SA are subject to polygraph tests :D .. and any IT complany dealing with sensitive information...

yeah.. tenuous link, but its there!
 
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